Wedding Etiquette Forum

Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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Re: Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

  • Sabinus15Sabinus15 member
    25 Love Its 10 Comments Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited January 2014

    Sabinus15 said:





    These statements are objectively false.  Marriage is a legal status, which you cannot change just by thinking one way or the other.  The legal ceremony makes you married.  Saying the couple can "consider" themselves married or unmarried is like saying someone can "consider" themselves a legal citizen of a country.  Your internal consideration doesn't matter.  It's just a fact that the couple is married, and it's just a fact that I am a legal citizen of the US and not of France.  I can "consider" myself a citizen of France all I want, but my legal status would remain unchanged.  And I can't "consider" myself not a citizen of the US, and renounce my citizenship just with my mental gymnastics.  The law doesn't work that way.  Either you are or you aren't, and the actual legal wedding (whether JOP or whatever else) is what changes your status.

    Other posters have made great points about the hypocrisy and lying so I will just say, ditto.  But this willful ignorance of how the law works made me cringe.






    You would be 100% correct if everyone considered marri
    age to be a legal agreement only, but it is much more than that to many people. If someone has the religious belief that a true, binding wedding can only be witnessed in a religious way, than their legal status is irellevent. 


    Yeah no, I don't think so.  You can think the religious and spiritual aspect of your wedding ceremony is the only thing that makes your marriage valid, but you need your marriage to be legally valid for a number of reasons.

    So go ahead and poo poo the legal documentation that actually makes your marriage valid, but then

    Tell the IRS that the legal status is irrelevant when you go to joint file your taxes. 

    Tell the government that the legal status is irrelevant when you try to claim Social Security, Medicare, or disability benefits for your spouse.

    Tell your employer that the legal status is irrelevant when you want to obtain insurance benefits for your spouse through your employer, or vice versa.

    Tell the government that the legal status is irrelevant when
    your spouse is dying and you want to claim power of attorney, or after they die and you want to claim
    money and property from their estate as yours.


    None of those are religious benefits, they are all legal and financial benefits. For someone who only considers a religious ceremony to be valid, you might as well rename the legal portion to be a "domestic partnership agreement" because that better explains the reasons for why a religious couple would become legally married.

     In fact, everyone gets legally married for the benefits. You can have a marriage ceremony, religious or not, apart from the legality of the government. Marriage existed before there were legal benefits attached. The only reason people get legally married now is because there are obvious benefits, and it makes you "feel" married. It just doesn't make financial and legal sense to not get legally married because of the benefits and because it is so easy, but now, people have equated having a signed marriage license as being married, which is not true. The two are independent of each other.
    grumbledoreDaringtoDreamperdonamidwhereicome
  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its
    bangs head.






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
    tcnoblechibiyuihappywigglejenniferurs
  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's member
    Eighth Anniversary 10000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    lyndausvi said:
    bangs head.
    Yup.  I don't think she is getting it.

    PrettyGirlLostvt&dtjenniferurs
  • Sabinus15Sabinus15 member
    25 Love Its 10 Comments Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited January 2014
    lyndausvi said:
    bangs head.
    Yup.  I don't think she is getting it.
    Gee, sorry to disappoint ya'll. I just don't see the concept of marriage the same way you do apparently.
    AroundTheBlockperdonami
  • Sabinus15 said:
    lyndausvi said:
    bangs head.
    Yup.  I don't think she is getting it.
    Gee, sorry to disappoint ya'll. I just don't see the concept of marriage the same way you do apparently.
    Since it seems that your concept of marriage is different from that of many other people, it would behoove you to use crystal clear communication with your wedding guests -- at least some of whom are likely to share the more common belief (assumption, if you want) that marriage refers to the legal aspect. When you spell out for them whether or not you are legally married and whether the ceremony they are witnessing is legal, religious, both, or neither in nature, your honored guests can decide for themselves whether they would like to attend.

    photo fancy-as-fuck.jpg
    cookie0803jenniferurs
  • MobKazMobKaz Chicago suburbs member
    Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    SKPM said:
    Sabinus15 said:
    lyndausvi said:
    bangs head.
    Yup.  I don't think she is getting it.
    Gee, sorry to disappoint ya'll. I just don't see the concept of marriage the same way you do apparently.
    Since it seems that your concept of marriage is different from that of many other people, it would behoove you to use crystal clear communication with your wedding guests -- at least some of whom are likely to share the more common belief (assumption, if you want) that marriage refers to the legal aspect. When you spell out for them whether or not you are legally married and whether the ceremony they are witnessing is legal, religious, both, or neither in nature, your honored guests can decide for themselves whether they would like to attend.
    Herein lies the crux of the problem.  Their concept of the truth is equally skewed for posters such as STB and others of a similar "mindset".
  • acove2006 said:
    lyndausvi said:
    bangs head.
    Yup.  I don't think she is getting it.
    Gee, sorry to disappoint ya'll. I just don't see the concept of marriage the same way you do apparently.
    I will try one more time. 

     These people do not care about the piece of paper. HOWEVER, they will gladly admit that they are married when that piece of paper comes into play, such as spousal benefits and such. 

    Now, if what you are saying is that there are certain people who only deem themselves married when it is done in the eyes of the Lord then why the need for the piece of paper. If they do not see that piece of paper as anything other then a piece of paper, then why even get it? 

    Oh that is right, for those spousal benefits. So they do, in fact, see themselves as married with that piece of paper because if it weren't for that paper they wouldn't get any benefits what so ever.

     But if they truly believed that being married under the eyes of the Lord was enough then they wouldn't even bother with that piece of paper and would go through life completely content that they are, in their minds, happily married.

    This should be required reading for everyone who joins these forums.
    I might be new, but can I agree with the last two statements for acove and maggie? Because I do.
    chibiyuiWildMageletcrunchymamaof2 aurorajanette
  • cruffino said:
    I currently consider myself to be the queen of England and I demand that you all address me as your highness. That is all. You are dismissed.
    Well Damn Liz, you are looking FINE today!!!

    image

    chibiyuiPrettyGirlLostcruffinoaurorajanette
  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    edited January 2014
    acove2006 said:
    debmonn said:
    @STBMrsEverhart if you don't think it matters, then why don't you just tell the people who you are inviting to your "wedding"

    That would make the most sense, wouldn't it? Unless one was really worried about others' reactions, even if they won't admit it or think they do.



    I don't think worried is the proper word at all. We want our September wedding recognized by all as the day we are married, whether people are in attendance or not. That's going to be a little hard if we're regaling folks with the tale of being duped by my company and signing our marriage license ahead of time (which we were planning to do before leaving town anyway). No, it's not exactly how we wanted it all to go down but it's life, and as I've said before I don't believe being an adult equals scrapping your plans because things got complicated. I think it means making the best decisions you can using the information in front of you and deciding ahead of time if you can live with the consequences of your decisions. That is what we have done. Worrying would only cause undo aggravation and needless grief to an otherwise awesome time in our lives. 
    Sabinus15dwhereicome
  • delujm0 said:

    This thread really blew up this weekend.

     

    I really get hung up on the "it's whether the couple considers themselves to be married" thing.  Look, i understand that some people view the religious ceremony as the most important part, and that they won't be considered married by their church until the religious ceremony happens.  It's not me, but i get it.  If you feel this way, but you get legally married before hand, and you're really attached to having your religious wedding ceremony and reception, why can't you at least be up front about it to your guests?  Invite them to your spiritual wedding or something?  And not hide the fact that legally you are already married?

     

    The reason that people lie about it is because they KNOW what they are doing is wrong, but they want to do it anyway.  It's very selfish.  If you're really attached to doing this, go ahead, i'm not going to stop you.  Just tell your guests what the real situation is first.  If they don't agree with it, they won't come.  Simple as that.  The lying is what is offensive and rude.  Just don't do it.

     

    And if you're reasoning for lying is "the guests don't have any right to know our personal life" then why on earth are you inviting these people to witness your marriage?  Is that not personal?  THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.  I'm guessing that these guests who have no right to know about your personal life are only being invited so that you can get gifts from them? Ugh. I can't speak for other couples but we're not the least bit interested in gifts from anyone. So much so that we are requesting no gifts be given. That decision had nothing to do with the order in which we signed the papers and everything to do with the fact that inviting people out of the country and their accepting is awesome, they needn't give a gift in addition. The fact that etiquette demands gifts not be mentioned, therefore requesting gifts not be given is rude too, is amongst the silliest bits of wisdom I choose to ignore. 

     

    For the love of god, don't liken "considering" yourself to be married to "considering" yourself to be engaged or dating.  Only one of these is an actual legal status - it's not about opinions, it's a legal fact.  For example, I am a US Citizen.  If i decide tomorrow to start "considering" myself an Italian citizen, you better believe I can't just pack up and move to Italy permanently.  Because regardless of consideration, citizenship is a legal fact, and I am not, in fact, Italian.

     

    I don't even want to get started on how terrible it is for people to have the "it's just a piece of paper" attitude when so many couples are denied the ability to get that piece of paper.  it makes me sick. 


  • mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    edited January 2014
    delujm0 said:

    People are too entitled these days...they all want to have their cake and eat it too. If not to eat it, what's the point of cake? I'm more offended by one group of individuals deciding what is and isn't acceptable for some and not others. Life is short, I'll be having and eating my cake like a happy fat kid at a state fair. 

     

    If "signing the papers" isn't what makes you married, then you shouldn't be benefitting from any perks given only to married people, because you don't "consider" yourself to be married.  If signing the papers gives you a benefit that you are taking advantage of, then you are actually considering yourself to be married because if you didn't consider yourself married you wouldn't have that benefit now would you?

     

    This is a case of "i want a big fancy wedding in a year when i can pay for it, but i want spousal benefits immediately, so i'm going to "sign the papers" now but pretend to not be married until the "wedding" in a year."  It's nonsense.  Pick one or the other.  Part of being an adult means making difficult decisions and occassionally having to make a sacrifice for what you want or need. No, being an adult means you occasionally have hard decisions to make and you make them, factoring in possible outcomes and how they may effect you and those your decisions touch. If being an adult to you means a ton of unpleasant sacrifices, have at it! 

     

    Case in point: FI and i have been together for over 9 years.  We have lived together for 7.  FI doesn't have dental insurance provided by his employer.  I do.  Today, FI is having a dental procedure done that is going to cost him well over $1,000.  If we were married, he would be on my dental insurance, and this would cost him almost nothing.  Guess what we didn't do when we found out he needed this procedure?  The answer is: go to the JOP and get legally married now but then continue on with our planned wedding in 4 months.  We are adults.  Sometimes unplanned expenses come up.  FI will be paying cash for his dental work because our planned wedding is important to us, and because we respect our guests too much to lie to them about what the ceremony they are witnessing actually is. Your opinion on this subject makes you believe that you are morally superior because you've made other choices where your FI's health and well being are concerned than others have with theirs. That's your business. There's nothing my FI and I wouldn't do for the other and in the face of his healthcare, there's not a lie I wouldn't tell or a fact I wouldn't omit to anyone in this world on any subject to make sure he was going to be okay. When we were mulling over our limited options and I put myself in his shoes for a moment I knew instantly that he wouldn't even stop to consider consequences or anything else for that matter if the roles were reversed, he'd have me on his insurance in a heart beat and any negative consequences that may come along later, be damned. After that the decision was simple. Later, he saw no reason to derail our planned wedding either, it didn't have to be one or the other as far as we were concerned. We sought counsel from a few close family members and two of our closest friends, then put our decision to rest. 

    Sabinus15perdonami
  •  

    acove2006 said:
    debmonn said:
    @STBMrsEverhart if you don't think it matters, then why don't you just tell the people who you are inviting to your "wedding"

    That would make the most sense, wouldn't it? Unless one was really worried about others' reactions, even if they won't admit it or think they do.



    I don't think worried is the proper word at all. We want our September wedding recognized by all as the day we are married, whether people are in attendance or not. That's going to be a little hard if we're regaling folks with the tale of being duped by my company and signing our marriage license ahead of time (which we were planning to do before leaving town anyway). No, it's not exactly how we wanted it all to go down but it's life, and as I've said before I don't believe being an adult equals scrapping your plans because things got complicated. I think it means making the best decisions you can using the information in front of you and deciding ahead of time if you can live with the consequences of your decisions. That is what we have done. Worrying would only cause undo aggravation and needless grief to an otherwise awesome time in our lives. 

    I'm pretty sure most people will still consider that your 'wedding' date, whether or not they know you were already married. Honestly, I doubt many of them will care and will truly want to celebrate with you if you're honest from the start. And more importantly, very few will actually remember your wedding date at all (be it the actual wedding day or the Mexico party). So this leads me to believe that deep down you must know that some guests may not approve of your plan so you feel lying is the only way to avoid potential negative feedback. You've said repeatedly that you wouldn't want those kind of people present anyway, so why not just tell them so they won't come? You're likely to get worse feedback if they find out you lied (and they will, somehow, sometime) so just be upfront and have some integrity.

     

    And how on earth did your insurance company dupe you?

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

    grumbledore
  • acove2006 said:

     

    acove2006 said:
    debmonn said:
    @STBMrsEverhart if you don't think it matters, then why don't you just tell the people who you are inviting to your "wedding"

    That would make the most sense, wouldn't it? Unless one was really worried about others' reactions, even if they won't admit it or think they do.



    I don't think worried is the proper word at all. We want our September wedding recognized by all as the day we are married, whether people are in attendance or not. That's going to be a little hard if we're regaling folks with the tale of being duped by my company and signing our marriage license ahead of time (which we were planning to do before leaving town anyway). No, it's not exactly how we wanted it all to go down but it's life, and as I've said before I don't believe being an adult equals scrapping your plans because things got complicated. I think it means making the best decisions you can using the information in front of you and deciding ahead of time if you can live with the consequences of your decisions. That is what we have done. Worrying would only cause undo aggravation and needless grief to an otherwise awesome time in our lives. 

    I'm pretty sure most people will still consider that your 'wedding' date, whether or not they know you were already married. Honestly, I doubt many of them will care and will truly want to celebrate with you if you're honest from the start. And more importantly, very few will actually remember your wedding date at all (be it the actual wedding day or the Mexico party). So this leads me to believe that deep down you must know that some guests may not approve of your plan so you feel lying is the only way to avoid potential negative feedback. You've said repeatedly that you wouldn't want those kind of people present anyway, so why not just tell them so they won't come? You're likely to get worse feedback if they find out you lied (and they will, somehow, sometime) so just be upfront and have some integrity.

     

    And how on earth did your insurance company dupe you?

    Involuntarily FORCED at gunpoint to marry...
    At which point, I would still NOT lie to my guests.  It's absurd to lie to everyone you claim to be closest with...
    Fran1985 grumbledoreaurorajanette
  • I love how this thread never dies and the thread troll keeps trucking every couple of days, bringing it up again and again and again. honestly honey your responses are so entertaining and self centered and delusional...they make me laugh.
    grumbledoreaurorajanettejenniferurs
  • That's the response she is hoping to get from you...sadly.
    mimiphingrumbledoreaurorajanettejenniferurs
  • That's the response she is hoping to get from you...sadly.

    How right you are.

    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    aurorajanettejenniferurs
  • Sabinus15Sabinus15 member
    25 Love Its 10 Comments Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited January 2014
    It reminds me of that moral dilemma where you can choose to follow an injust law because it is the law or choose to break the law for the sake of the greater good. It just depends on the way you make moral choices and your moral development level as illustrated below:

    image
    AroundTheBlock
  • Most members of the TK have a conventional sense of morality, and STB and I have a post-conventional sense of morality. Don't feel bad, a professor once told me that many adults never reach level three. 
    AroundTheBlockperdonami
  • Sabinus15Sabinus15 member
    25 Love Its 10 Comments Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited January 2014
    It reminds me of that moral dilemma where you can choose to follow an injust law because it is the law or choose to break the law for the sake of the greater good. It just depends on the way you make moral choices and your moral development level as illustrated below:

    image
    All charts aside, lying to your guests is still rude.
    It's not how I personally would go about it, but I can at least empathize with people and understand why they do it. 

    EDIT: Actually, I can't say how I would go about it because I am not experiencing it. I think it would depend on the situation. 
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