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Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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Re: Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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    "Cool story bro. 

    I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs,  the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette. 

    Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board.  Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board."


    chibiyui, It was wasn't a story and I am not your "bro" because that's just not possible. But, thanks all the same. I had no idea there was a "traditional definition of a PPD". What publication can I find this definition? 

    My "story" was not claiming that PDD's are not a "misdirection on the couples legal martial status" or lying or withholding holding information from their guests. I agreed that this is lying. What I wanted to know was how everyone can say lying is completely wrong all the time. But yet, we lie to our loved ones (kids) all the time and this is perfectly acceptable behavior in our society.

    Why are several lies to our family (kids) acceptable behavior in our society, but the one lie to our family (adults) is not acceptable behavior in society. Who makes these rules of proper etiquette for our society and who decides when they change? Isn't it safe to say that proper etiquette is always changing throughout history?

    I don't expect any of you to give up your beliefs and I wouldn't want you to. It would be an awful place if we all just agreed with each other. I'm simply just trying to debate some of the facts that support your beliefs. I think most people are not looking for a stranger's approval on etiquette, but what facts require them as such.
    There are plenty of people who come one here for validation of their "PPD's"  I am actually on the usually-don't-give-a-fuck side, I know friends who have had PPD's, and I don't hold it against them.

    That said, dude, this is an etiquette wedding board. If you want to get into philosopical discussions and debates about lying, morality and the crushing ennui of being, this isn't the place. As far as lying is concerned, there are plenty of socially acceptable times to lie, or maybe more accurately, times where lying is judged on a sliding scale from harmless to heinous.

    And please, you know very well that PPD is an idiom in common use on the TK forums, and has not gained mainstream use. Give Websters 5 years to catch up.
    @chibiyui, Well, dude, that's what I am doing. I am aware this is the etiquette board. That's why I am discussing etiquette and debating points already given. Please, tell me what part of my discussion was "philosopical"? I'm sorry, but I really find it funny you think me stating that "lying is always wrong" is somehow philosophical thinking. I don't even know how to respond to that. I had no idea I was getting into some really deep thinking by using Santa and the Easter bunny as a comparison. So, now it's ok to lie. It just depends on how much the lie hurts the other person to decide if it's acceptable or not. Do you interview people to find out this information? What are the "plenty" of times it is acceptable to lie? To think, all these years I have been telling the truth when I didn't have to. Yes, I know what I was saying and that was the reason I said it. I can't believe Webster or mainstream society hasn't already found this gem of the English language. That was meant just to be a joke. I figured since you don't usually give a fuck, you wouldn't mind some etiquette humor.       
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    Sabinus15Sabinus15 member
    5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited February 2014
    chibiyui said:



    "Cool story bro. 

    I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs,  the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette. 

    Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board.  Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board."


    chibiyui, It was wasn't a story and I am not your "bro" because that's just not possible. But, thanks all the same. I had no idea there was a "traditional definition of a PPD". What publication can I find this definition? 

    My "story" was not claiming that PDD's are not a "misdirection on the couples legal martial status" or lying or withholding holding information from their guests. I agreed that this is lying. What I wanted to know was how everyone can say lying is completely wrong all the time. But yet, we lie to our loved ones (kids) all the time and this is perfectly acceptable behavior in our society.

    Why are several lies to our family (kids) acceptable behavior in our society, but the one lie to our family (adults) is not acceptable behavior in society. Who makes these rules of proper etiquette for our society and who decides when they change? Isn't it safe to say that proper etiquette is always changing throughout history?

    I don't expect any of you to give up your beliefs and I wouldn't want you to. It would be an awful place if we all just agreed with each other. I'm simply just trying to debate some of the facts that support your beliefs. I think most people are not looking for a stranger's approval on etiquette, but what facts require them as such.


    There are plenty of people who come one here for validation of their "PPD's"  I am actually on the usually-don't-give-a-fuck side, I know friends who have had PPD's, and I don't hold it against them.

    That said, dude, this is an etiquette wedding board. If you want to get into philosopical discussions and debates about lying, morality and the crushing ennui of being, this isn't the place. As far as lying is concerned, there are plenty of socially acceptable times to lie, or maybe more accurately, times where lying is judged on a sliding scale from harmless to heinous.

    And please, you know very well that PPD is an idiom in common use
    on the TK forums, and has not gained mainstream
    use. Give Websters 5 years to catch up.
    I disagree, etiquette is completely relevant to morality. The reason people follow etiquette is because of morality. And the fact is, the reason people are still debating this topic is because not everyone agrees that all possible forms of a "ppd" are against etiquette.
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    "Cool story bro. 

    I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs,  the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette. 

    Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board.  Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board."


    chibiyui, It was wasn't a story and I am not your "bro" because that's just not possible. But, thanks all the same. I had no idea there was a "traditional definition of a PPD". What publication can I find this definition? 

    My "story" was not claiming that PDD's are not a "misdirection on the couples legal martial status" or lying or withholding holding information from their guests. I agreed that this is lying. What I wanted to know was how everyone can say lying is completely wrong all the time. But yet, we lie to our loved ones (kids) all the time and this is perfectly acceptable behavior in our society.

    Why are several lies to our family (kids) acceptable behavior in our society, but the one lie to our family (adults) is not acceptable behavior in society. Who makes these rules of proper etiquette for our society and who decides when they change? Isn't it safe to say that proper etiquette is always changing throughout history?

    I don't expect any of you to give up your beliefs and I wouldn't want you to. It would be an awful place if we all just agreed with each other. I'm simply just trying to debate some of the facts that support your beliefs. I think most people are not looking for a stranger's approval on etiquette, but what facts require them as such.
    There are plenty of people who come one here for validation of their "PPD's"  I am actually on the usually-don't-give-a-fuck side, I know friends who have had PPD's, and I don't hold it against them.

    That said, dude, this is an etiquette wedding board. If you want to get into philosopical discussions and debates about lying, morality and the crushing ennui of being, this isn't the place. As far as lying is concerned, there are plenty of socially acceptable times to lie, or maybe more accurately, times where lying is judged on a sliding scale from harmless to heinous.

    And please, you know very well that PPD is an idiom in common use on the TK forums, and has not gained mainstream use. Give Websters 5 years to catch up.
    @chibiyui, Well, dude, that's what I am doing. I am aware this is the etiquette board. That's why I am discussing etiquette and debating points already given. Please, tell me what part of my discussion was "philosopical"? I'm sorry, but I really find it funny you think me stating that "lying is always wrong" is somehow philosophical thinking. I don't even know how to respond to that. I had no idea I was getting into some really deep thinking by using Santa and the Easter bunny as a comparison. So, now it's ok to lie. It just depends on how much the lie hurts the other person to decide if it's acceptable or not. Do you interview people to find out this information? What are the "plenty" of times it is acceptable to lie? To think, all these years I have been telling the truth when I didn't have to. Yes, I know what I was saying and that was the reason I said it. I can't believe Webster or mainstream society hasn't already found this gem of the English language. That was meant just to be a joke. I figured since you don't usually give a fuck, you wouldn't mind some etiquette humor.       
    It's hard to tell when you"re joking, because your writing is overblown and dramatic (And you didn't seem to get the "cool story, bro meme). You write like the board is a dissertation. Which is fine, by the way, it just throws your "tone" off.

    As for lying. Most people would find a difference between say, lying  the Easter Bunny and lying about the paternity of your child. Yes actually, it is okay to lie to your kid about the Easter bunny, because there is a cultural connection to be shared with other kids, and it helps foster childrens imaginations, along with the Tooth fairy, Santa Claus and Queen Elizabeth. You don't *have* to tell you kids the Easter Bunny is real, just like you don't *have* to tell the father of your child it's his kid, but one of those lies hurts more then the other.

    Which brings us to the important part of this. What is socially/culturally acceptable is not always right. In most states it's still not legal for gay couples to marry their partners. It used to be acceptable to segregate based of race. It used to be acceptable to fire female teachers when they married. In some cultures, dog fighting and cock fighting are acceptable. Some lies are "acceptable" which does not equal "right"

    (Oh, and the whole philosophical debate came from a combo of your writing style and the 1 or 2 paragraphs you had on how almost everyone has a PPD if they don't have a JOP ceremony only. )
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    beam20062010beam20062010 member
    5 Love Its First Comment Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited February 2014
    chibiyui said:
    "Cool story bro. 

    I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs,  the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette. 

    Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board.  Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board."


    chibiyui, It was wasn't a story and I am not your "bro" because that's just not possible. But, thanks all the same. I had no idea there was a "traditional definition of a PPD". What publication can I find this definition? 

    My "story" was not claiming that PDD's are not a "misdirection on the couples legal martial status" or lying or withholding holding information from their guests. I agreed that this is lying. What I wanted to know was how everyone can say lying is completely wrong all the time. But yet, we lie to our loved ones (kids) all the time and this is perfectly acceptable behavior in our society.

    Why are several lies to our family (kids) acceptable behavior in our society, but the one lie to our family (adults) is not acceptable behavior in society. Who makes these rules of proper etiquette for our society and who decides when they change? Isn't it safe to say that proper etiquette is always changing throughout history?

    I don't expect any of you to give up your beliefs and I wouldn't want you to. It would be an awful place if we all just agreed with each other. I'm simply just trying to debate some of the facts that support your beliefs. I think most people are not looking for a stranger's approval on etiquette, but what facts require them as such.
    There are plenty of people who come one here for validation of their "PPD's"  I am actually on the usually-don't-give-a-fuck side, I know friends who have had PPD's, and I don't hold it against them.

    That said, dude, this is an etiquette wedding board. If you want to get into philosopical discussions and debates about lying, morality and the crushing ennui of being, this isn't the place. As far as lying is concerned, there are plenty of socially acceptable times to lie, or maybe more accurately, times where lying is judged on a sliding scale from harmless to heinous.

    And please, you know very well that PPD is an idiom in common use on the TK forums, and has not gained mainstream use. Give Websters 5 years to catch up.
    @chibiyui, Well, dude, that's what I am doing. I am aware this is the etiquette board. That's why I am discussing etiquette and debating points already given. Please, tell me what part of my discussion was "philosopical"? I'm sorry, but I really find it funny you think me stating that "lying is always wrong" is somehow philosophical thinking. I don't even know how to respond to that. I had no idea I was getting into some really deep thinking by using Santa and the Easter bunny as a comparison. So, now it's ok to lie. It just depends on how much the lie hurts the other person to decide if it's acceptable or not. Do you interview people to find out this information? What are the "plenty" of times it is acceptable to lie? To think, all these years I have been telling the truth when I didn't have to. Yes, I know what I was saying and that was the reason I said it. I can't believe Webster or mainstream society hasn't already found this gem of the English language. That was meant just to be a joke. I figured since you don't usually give a fuck, you wouldn't mind some etiquette humor.       
    It's hard to tell when you"re joking, because your writing is overblown and dramatic (And you didn't seem to get the "cool story, bro meme). You write like the board is a dissertation. Which is fine, by the way, it just throws your "tone" off.

    As for lying. Most people would find a difference between say, lying  the Easter Bunny and lying about the paternity of your child. Yes actually, it is okay to lie to your kid about the Easter bunny, because there is a cultural connection to be shared with other kids, and it helps foster childrens imaginations, along with the Tooth fairy, Santa Claus and Queen Elizabeth. You don't *have* to tell you kids the Easter Bunny is real, just like you don't *have* to tell the father of your child it's his kid, but one of those lies hurts more then the other.

    Which brings us to the important part of this. What is socially/culturally acceptable is not always right. In most states it's still not legal for gay couples to marry their partners. It used to be acceptable to segregate based of race. It used to be acceptable to fire female teachers when they married. In some cultures, dog fighting and cock fighting are acceptable. Some lies are "acceptable" which does not equal "right"

    (Oh, and the whole philosophical debate came from a combo of your writing style and the 1 or 2 paragraphs you had on how almost everyone has a PPD if they don't have a JOP ceremony only. )
    No, I am sorry to say, I missed the meme. I disagree, I think it's pretty easy to understand my "tone." Just like right now after reading this you already know I am not really sorry I missed the meme. Or, how you knew I did, in fact, already know that PPD isn't located in any printed publication.

    I've never had someone define my writing as "overblown" and "dramatic". In fact, I have no fucking clue what that even means or what you are referring to. I was hoping to clarify my points as throughly as I could if that's what you're referring to. If not, it's ok you got the points I was trying to make, so that's all that matters. 

    Imagination is "forming mental images or concepts of what is not actually present to the senses." Kids are not using their imaginations because the characters are already made up right down to how they look, what they do, and why they do it. All the kid has to do is believe what you tell them. Honestly, I don't see any reason we lie to kids about these things other than for the benefit of enjoyment or entertainment. That's why I compared it to a wedding. 

    No, I guess you got me there, you don't really "*have*" to tell anybody anything if you don't want to. This still doesn't make it right to lie just because you have the ability. So, are you saying wedding guests will be just as hurt as a father who doesn't get to know his child? Wait, how will the father be hurt if he doesn't even know he has a kid? While, I was pretty pissed when I found out Santa wasn't real, I do see what you are trying to say. Although, I just don't see much difference between the two lies and how you can justify one, but not the other. 


    -------->"What is socially/culturally acceptable is not always right." This. A million times, this. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Yes, lots of things used to be acceptable that now no longer are. Times are always changing and we realize this, so we make changes for the better. 

    No, I said anyone that wanted all the extra fluff of a wedding was really just having PPD's, so this doesn't include JOP ceremonies. 

     
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    TerriHuggTerriHugg member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    edited February 2014
    acove2006 said:

    I'd love to compare the divorce rate of those who had PPD (well, those who lied to their guests) and those who went about things the moral and honest way.

     

    All these comparisons are apples and oranges. The biggest issue with PPD (at least IMO) is the intent behind it. Why do some parents lie to their children about fictional characters? Maybe it's their religion, maybe it's a family tradition, maybe they just love to see the joy it brings to their children. Its something they do to make their children happy. The intent is good. Though not every parent feels that way and does feel that even that is wrong. TBH I'm torn on the subject.

     

    I can't recall any 'brides' on here that have had good intentions with lying to their guests about the fact that they're already married. Even STB admitted that the lying was, at least in part, to make sure their guests had the "right" emotions and believe it to be their true wedding day. Lying to make your guests feel "in the moment" or similar is not having good intentions. It's being manipulative.

    What is so hard about telling your guests the truth? If your reasoning to get married before your 'wedding' is as sincere and legitimate as you claim, why NOT tell your guests? Some will judge, yes. But I bet many will come and support you and have an awesome time and will appreciate your honesty.

    Nobody likes being lied to with ill intentions. Nobody.

    With all due respect, I get what you are trying to say but one could argue that your first point about lying to your kids could also be seen as manipulative even though it is in fact in good intentions. In that case, I don't see this particular instance like "apples to oranges" as you say. I do believe that people withhold the information from their guests in good intentions when holding a second ceremony. It is not always manipulative. And I think that's the point Beam was trying to make, the withholding of information when it comes to second ceremony is not always manipulative as some here seem to believe. There some cases in which a couple does it with good intentions. 
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    acove2006 said:

    I'd love to compare the divorce rate of those who had PPD (well, those who lied to their guests) and those who went about things the moral and honest way.

     

    All these comparisons are apples and oranges. The biggest issue with PPD (at least IMO) is the intent behind it. Why do some parents lie to their children about fictional characters? Maybe it's their religion, maybe it's a family tradition, maybe they just love to see the joy it brings to their children. Its something they do to make their children happy. The intent is good. Though not every parent feels that way and does feel that even that is wrong. TBH I'm torn on the subject.

     

    I can't recall any 'brides' on here that have had good intentions with lying to their guests about the fact that they're already married. Even STB admitted that the lying was, at least in part, to make sure their guests had the "right" emotions and believe it to be their true wedding day. Lying to make your guests feel "in the moment" or similar is not having good intentions. It's being manipulative.

    What is so hard about telling your guests the truth? If your reasoning to get married before your 'wedding' is as sincere and legitimate as you claim, why NOT tell your guests? Some will judge, yes. But I bet many will come and support you and have an awesome time and will appreciate your honesty.

    Nobody likes being lied to with ill intentions. Nobody.

    I would also love to compare the divorce rate with people who decide to maybe two years later have a PPD compared the marriages that only last two years. 

    Don't make blanket statements and say "these comparisons" are "apples and oranges." Tell me, what comparisons are not really comparisons and WHY? This is how you debate something, with facts, not your opinions. Show me each of the comparisons that can not be made and why.

    The point I am trying to so desperately make is that you all said lying to your loved ones is wrong 100% percent of the time, period. Then, you preceded to call posters names degrading them for wanting to do so. My point is if lying is wrong 100% of the time then you can't cherry pick from the lies you deem socially acceptable. It just does't work that way. If you can't see that there is nothing I am going to say that will convince you otherwise. Thankfully, we are allowed to all have our different opinions.

    What's so hard about telling your kids the truth and not lying about Santa? That question makes no sense! Of course, it's not hard to lie. No one is going to debate you on that point. Why NOT tell your kids that the Easter bunny doesn't really exist? This is also being manipulative. If you don't think so then, you explain to me why not with facts, not your opinion. 

    You don't think the intent is good of women in these situations. That's right you just "think" you don't really know until your in the situations yourself. Your basing your conclusions on assumptions of what you think other women may or may not have been trying to do.    
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    lyndausvi said:
    So because your parents may have lied to you about the Tooth Fairy means it's okay to lie and manipulate your friends about your real marital status in regards to a PPD?  It's okay to take all the benefits allowed by the martial status, yet not tell your friends you are married so they will feel like the ceremony is "real".   Yeah, okay.


    And if you do not already know, I'm self-proclaimed PPD-lite.  I have flown over to Europe for a PPD. I'm one of the few that can look at the situation and decide on a case-by-case.   As long as you are honest with me, I will support you.  I don't like my friends intentionally lie (or lie by omission) in order for me to be "on the same page emotional".   I will not go as far as saying it would be a relationship ender, but it would make me take a different look at the friend.


    Oh and I get a gift from Santa every year so I don't know what you are talking about Santa isn't real.


    Once again, every single one of you said that lying is wrong 100% of the time!!! Please! Understand, that I am not now nor have I ever said that lying is right! I am simply debating your own facts, not mine.

    I am not by any means saying that because your parents did something, that later in life it gives you an excuse to do the same. That's like me saying, it's ok to kill someone just because your parent did it. Your not grasping the point I am trying to make. If lying is wrong all the time, as you all stated MANY times, how can you possibly justify one lie, but not the other? 

    The only difference is that one lie is more socially acceptable, which is the point I am trying to also make. Etiquette isn't law it's something that society deems as acceptable behavior and etiquette is always changing with the times. 

    Who said that all women were doing this to make the ceremony feel "real"? This is your opinion, you have no clue why women do it because you have never been in their shoes. I am debating facts, not how a person may or may not have felt the day of her wedding because I have NO idea what was going through another person's mind; therefore, I can not judge them for it. 

    Yes, I read your story about eight times. I get it, I really do. You have an opinion and that's great! Like I said before, what bothered me was that this post was NOT made for opinions or discussions, but to say look, we are tired of discussing this issue case by case, here are the facts like it or not. This just isn't right. Mainly, because your facts don't hold up. 
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    Normally, I would just read a thread and move on. However, this time I feel the need to speak up and voice my opinion. After reading this I can understand why there are not a lot of other people wanting to jump in with opposing views for fear of being labeled a “troll” or dealing with negative comments. 


    Although, after 20 pages, I think it’s safe to say this topic is not as cut and dry as you want people to believe. No, I do not plan on getting married before our wedding date. But, this thread was a little hard to miss and it did get me thinking a lot, so I wanted to share some of things I still don’t quite understand.       


    For instance, the comment about how as adults we must make difficult decisions in life and we must also learn to live with these decisions. Why does this only apply to weddings? Why is there no concern that the divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. alone? I don’t get how people can look down their noses and show such disgust over how many wedding events a couple has or what they choose to call them; but yet divorce is such commonplace in our society.


    I don’t get why it’s so important that a couple must live with their decision on how they get married, but do not have to live with their decision to get married. Something is very wrong with this picture. I understand there are instances (ex. abusive relationships, cheating spouse etc.) that a couple could not have foreseen prior to making this legal commitment. This is why we have divorce. Even though no one held a gun to their heads and made them get married, we realize there are exceptions to every rule. Well, that is of course, unless your an engaged couple that might encounter unforeseen circumstances prior to getting married, then, you must live with your decisions.    


    I am guessing anyone that has had a divorce can give you a whole list of reasons/excuses why their marriage did not stand the test of time. So, if we also later find out the couple is now divorced, wasn’t it technically just a big fat lie in front of wedding guests when they promised “till death do us part”? Doesn’t this lie make it “fake”? How do you know for sure they really even truly meant those words the day of their wedding? Isn’t it rude to the guests that wasted their time and money in attending this wedding? If you think this sounds absolutely ridiculous, I agree. Now you know how I felt reading this thread.


    Next, yes, lying is wrong. My three year old could answer this question, so I won’t debate this fact. However, what I will do is debate whether or not withholding information is considered lying. When you were little did the Easter bunny leave you a basket? Did Santa visit your house on Christmas Eve? Did you put a tooth under your pillow for the tooth fairy? Were your parents a bunch of no good lairs? Is taking your kid to see someone dressed up as a fake Santa pretending to be something they are not, wrong? Is it ok for adults to lie to kids if the end result is enjoyment, but not ok for adults to lie to adults if the end result is enjoyment? They are just kids, so it doesn’t count if you lie to a kid, you just can’t lie to another adult. Right? Kids, are less important, right?


    Let me get this straight, you would have a problem with attending a wedding where a married women you care about is dressed up like a bride; but you will spend time and money to take your kid to see some random guy you don’t know that’s dressed up like Santa or the Easter bunny. Wait, I thought it was never ever ok to lie under any circumstances, period. Especially, lying to your family who you love. 


    That’s right, this is just stupid make believe kid stuff, it’s not something important like a legal marriage between two adults, this shit is real. But, I am guessing if you ask any young kid chances are those things are very real to them because that’s what you made them believe. If that’s the case, you are saying it’s really NOT wrong to lie or withhold information from our loved ones, it just depends on the particular situation. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.  


    Honestly, I don’t think anyone, including myself, can sit here and say what we would or wouldn’t do if in this situation. To me, that’s a lot like listening to a women tell me exactly how labor is going to feel that has never had a baby. Now, that’s something I would side eye the shit out of. 


    It’s a nice thought to think we would all so easily give up the wedding dress, bridesmaids, and everything else deemed inappropriate by some unwritten law of etiquette; but the truth is all we can really do is make assumptions. I am sure a lot of couples ending up in a divorce thought their marriages were going to go a certain way, but in reality we really don’t know until we walk down that path. I know, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the point I’m currently making, your going to say, “well they made the decision to get married early for benefits, if those things were important to them they should have waited like I did.” Hold on, I’m getting to that part. 


    Let’s talk about what’s most important. I read a lot of comments about the current struggles of the gay and lesbian community for the legal rights of marriage. How it’s a slap in the face to these individuals fighting so hard when other couples have PPD’s just because their first wedding ceremony was not good enough. I agree, a marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper; it’s a piece of paper representing the legal benefits not everyone is allowed just because of who they choose to love. The only thing that really makes a couple married is the license and ALL the other stuff is just extra unnecessary fluff. 


    Ok, if I understand this right, it’s a slap in the face to gays and lesbians because a couple decides the marriage license isn’t enough and they want all the extra unimportant fluff that isn’t required. But, it’s NOT a slap in the face to these communities when they watch people that can so easily have these benefits anytime they choose, decide to go years and years without them just so they can do it the “right” way with all the unimportant extras.  


    There are couples that would give their right tit to have these benefits right now today, but for couples, like myself, we aren’t happy with just those benefits and we want all the other material aspects not necessary to gain these benefits. Here, these gay and lesbian couples are fighting, struggling so hard just to get these benefits and we think it’s some noble feat because we choose to struggle so hard to go without these benefits just so we can have a wedding with all the extra unneeded fluff. 


    Why isn’t the marriage license enough for any of us? If being committed and married to our best friend for the rest of our lives is the most important thing, then why the hell do we wait years to do it? If you really think about it, labels aside, we all are just having Pretty Princess Days because NONE of it is really necessary. It’s like, you know honey, I really love and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but until we can afford all the extras, I am just not ready to make this commitment legally.


    Finally, if this had been any other post, I would read it, roll my eyes, quietly disagree and then, go on with my life. Although, when a group of women decide to make this a “sticky”, it sends the message that these opinions on what’s considered “proper etiquette” or “right” about a situation they have never personally experienced, aside from just being a guest, is not an opinion, but an undisputed fact. When the fact is that everyday as a society we change, grow with the times and in the process discover things we once thought were proper or the right way is not necessarily true anymore. 


    Times are changing as we now have states recognizing that not allowing everyone the right to get married is not proper and is not the right way. Today, times are harder than ever for a lot of people whom are struggling with finances or obtaining affordable healthcare. So, to tell these people that just because times are difficult now they can not later have the wedding ceremony they have always dreamed of just doesn’t seem like the proper or right way to handle the situation. There is a reason why the “wedding police” does not exist.


    I am sure there are those that only have a second wedding ceremony just because they want to gain money or gifts, but it’s not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s like giving everyone a speeding ticket just because one person decided not to obey the traffic laws. This is America, the land of the FREE, where you can make your dreams come true at anytime in your life regardless of the difficult past you may have been dealt. I won't judge people for the choices they make or which family members they choose to lie to, that's God's job, not mine. 


    Because I know this comment is coming, I do realize this is long, so you don't have to state the obvious. What can I say, you ladies gave me a lot of good points to dispute. Still, I don't think it's any longer than OP and I figured why not get it all out on one page instead of 20 more. 


    Edited: for grammer 


    Let me guess- you have never been divorced? Comparing someone who wants to have a big party with a big white dress and gifts after they are already married and someone who is getting married and then divorces is just ridiculous. Do you really think that divorce is an easy decision? That it isn't full of sadness, disappointment and even thoughts of failure? Deciding to divorce is living with your decision- a decision that is very adult and very serious. It's life altering. If you have walked a day in someone's shoes who has been divorced, regardless of why, that it's not lying to your guests. In fact, in some cases, if you decide to stay with someone because of vows you said at one point, you are seriously lying to yourself. It's lying to yourself that things are going to be just okey dokey because you once told someone you'd stick with them until death. I know you recognize that some divorces occur for very serious reasons and that you are okay with that. I just think it's funny when first time brides on here talk down about divorce. I used to be one of those brides and I was an asshole for being so naive.
    Let me guess-you have never had a PPD? Please, re-read my post because you are not grasping the comparison I was trying to make. I know for a fact divorce is a very hard thing to go through and I am not debating this at all! 

    In fact, you are getting way off into left field trying to make this into something it simply is not. I made the comparison about those going through a divorce or having to get one as a way of showing how life does't always take the path you want it to and that doesn't mean it's your fault or you should have to live with it. It was a comparison of having to live with your decisions in life after it takes you down an unexpected path. That's it, nothing more. We encounter hardships at all times in our lives and I don't think we should ever just have to live with it.  

    Don't read into what I am trying to say. I said what I meant straight up and I am not alluding to anything. I am right out saying it. I am glad you realize there is a sense of compassion needed for the couple going through a divorce because I completely agree. What I do not agree with is why the couples who are going through a hard time while being engaged are not shown any of the same compassion.

    I am so so so so glad you made the point about how at first you were "an asshole for being so naive." Your are 100% right! I am so glad you said this! These women on here are being just like you once were about divorces and after you experienced that struggle in life, it opened up your eyes and you saw what an asshole you had been. I am sure if a lot of women on here judging other women for a PPD had to go through this they also would all be singing another tune as well.

    I am sorry for what you had to go through. I am sure it was really hard. It makes me sad just thinking about it. Life is full of so much hardships and suffering. I just don't see the point in telling someone that might be met with hardships how they should live their lives, what they should have to live with and what they should have to do without. You only live once. 
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    I don't get why you keep hammering at the idea that because some of us might lie to our kids about Santa, its wrong to tell others its inappropriate to lie about their marital status. Thats like saying because I had a fender bender at 16, I can't teach my future kid to drive. Or that because I said a racial slur as a child I can't tell someone else using the slur that it's racist.
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    acove2006 said:

    Give me ONE good reason that guests shouldn't be made aware that they are witnessing a re-do ceremony and the "bride and groom" are actually husband and wife. Just one. And "it's none of their business" doesn't count because the moment you invited them to witness your "wedding" it became their business. What benefit will the guests get from the couple lying to them? Please enlighten me. The couple, on the other hand, thinks they get plenty of benefits. They get to dress up and do-over their wedding since their real wedding obviously wasn't good enough and lying to their guests is the only way they can achieve THEIR vision. The couple gets plenty of attention, presents, a party, and who knows what else. But all the guests receive is a big bag of bullshit.

     

    Just tell the truth. Slap on that tiara and pretend to be a bride again. I don't really care. But there isn't one good reason that lying to your guests is necessary.

    How are you not getting this? I am not debating any of these things. I AM NOT SAYING LYING IS RIGHT!!!!! I am not debating this fact so you do not have to try and further convince me, ok?! You and others on here said that lying is wrong 100% of the time, NOT ME. I just don't understand how you can be alright with one lie and not the other one. A lie is a lie is a lie. 

    How do these lies benefit our kids? Are they going to grow into awful adults if you don't lie to them about it? Your wasting your time continuing to repeat things that I am not even debating. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, because my points are getting lost in the redundancy. 


    Just tell your kids the truth. Slap on those big girl panties and don't pretend Santa is real. As you said, enjoyment is not a good enough reason to lie. 
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    acove2006 said:

    I'd love to compare the divorce rate of those who had PPD (well, those who lied to their guests) and those who went about things the moral and honest way.

     

    All these comparisons are apples and oranges. The biggest issue with PPD (at least IMO) is the intent behind it. Why do some parents lie to their children about fictional characters? Maybe it's their religion, maybe it's a family tradition, maybe they just love to see the joy it brings to their children. Its something they do to make their children happy. The intent is good. Though not every parent feels that way and does feel that even that is wrong. TBH I'm torn on the subject.

     

    I can't recall any 'brides' on here that have had good intentions with lying to their guests about the fact that they're already married. Even STB admitted that the lying was, at least in part, to make sure their guests had the "right" emotions and believe it to be their true wedding day. Lying to make your guests feel "in the moment" or similar is not having good intentions. It's being manipulative.

    What is so hard about telling your guests the truth? If your reasoning to get married before your 'wedding' is as sincere and legitimate as you claim, why NOT tell your guests? Some will judge, yes. But I bet many will come and support you and have an awesome time and will appreciate your honesty.

    Nobody likes being lied to with ill intentions. Nobody.

    I would also love to compare the divorce rate with people who decide to maybe two years later have a PPD compared the marriages that only last two years. 

    Don't make blanket statements and say "these comparisons" are "apples and oranges." Tell me, what comparisons are not really comparisons and WHY? This is how you debate something, with facts, not your opinions. Show me each of the comparisons that can not be made and why.

    The point I am trying to so desperately make is that you all said lying to your loved ones is wrong 100% percent of the time, period. Then, you preceded to call posters names degrading them for wanting to do so. My point is if lying is wrong 100% of the time then you can't cherry pick from the lies you deem socially acceptable. It just does't work that way. If you can't see that there is nothing I am going to say that will convince you otherwise. Thankfully, we are allowed to all have our different opinions.

    What's so hard about telling your kids the truth and not lying about Santa? That question makes no sense! Of course, it's not hard to lie. No one is going to debate you on that point. Why NOT tell your kids that the Easter bunny doesn't really exist? This is also being manipulative. If you don't think so then, you explain to me why not with facts, not your opinion. 

    You don't think the intent is good of women in these situations. That's right you just "think" you don't really know until your in the situations yourself. Your basing your conclusions on assumptions of what you think other women may or may not have been trying to do.    
    I think the difference between lying to your children about Santa and lying to your guests about your marriage status is who the "beneficiary" ends up being. The ultimate reason Santa/the Easter Bunny/the Tooth Fairy exist is to essentially give your children gifts. The children benefit. Yes, people are perfectly capable of giving gifts without the lie of it being from a mythical creature, but it adds to the magic of child hood. I, personally, wasn't devastated to find out any of these gift giving beings didn't exist, but was instead awed at how amazing my mom was for coming up with intricate Easter egg hunts and themed Christmas presents for 7 years. She did it because she loved me and wanted me to be happy. I benefited from the consequences of my mother's lie.

    But in the instance that someone felt the need to lie about or omit their marital status so I would attend their "wedding", I just don't see how a guest would be the beneficiary. If you can come up with an example where a guest would be truly happy to be lied to in that instance, I'll give credit where credit is due.
    So, now we have beneficiaries to lying? Wait, I thought lying was wrong ALL the time. That's what I just got done reading for 20 pages. Now suddenly, there are not only ok lies, but beneficiaries of lying. 

    My point is you can't present one thing as fact, but then not present it as fact in other areas of your life. If a lie is always wrong, then that's what it is, you can't change the definition later to fit your purpose. There are a lot of people that think it's wrong to lie to kids about these things. This is my point that these are all opinions. I completely respect your opinion and I am glad you have one.

    However, this thread wasn't made to hear opinions, it was made to tell women facts, one of which is that lying is NEVER right. Obviously, I am now hearing it depends on who is going benefit from the lie. This changes things a lot. I hope you can at least see the point I am trying to make. Share your opinions, but don't make this a sticky and represent it as cold hard facts. 

    It sounds like your mom was an awesome women! :) 
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    RajahBMFD said:
    I actually refuse to make my future offspring believe Santa is real. Does that mean I'm allowed to find it wrong to lie about being married?
    No, that just means you are NOT one of the women I was addressing in my post that for the last 20 pages said that lying is wrong 100% of the time, period. I was debating this statement they made, not me. Now, however, I am finding that it is indeed ok to lie, it just depends on if someone benefits from it. I am learning new stuff everyday! I think that's great you are choosing not to lie to your kids. It's hard to not conform to what society deems as acceptable behavior. Good for you! 
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    chibiyui said:
    I don't get why you keep hammering at the idea that because some of us might lie to our kids about Santa, its wrong to tell others its inappropriate to lie about their marital status. Thats like saying because I had a fender bender at 16, I can't teach my future kid to drive. Or that because I said a racial slur as a child I can't tell someone else using the slur that it's racist.
    What? I am not hammering the point, you are. This isn't about things you do as an adult vs. things you do as a kid. lol This is about lying!!! You all said lying was wrong, that's the point I am debating. However, now you are all are saying it depends on the situation...you changed the facts of your original argument to fit your purpose. 
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    acove2006 said:

    I'd love to compare the divorce rate of those who had PPD (well, those who lied to their guests) and those who went about things the moral and honest way.

     

    All these comparisons are apples and oranges. The biggest issue with PPD (at least IMO) is the intent behind it. Why do some parents lie to their children about fictional characters? Maybe it's their religion, maybe it's a family tradition, maybe they just love to see the joy it brings to their children. Its something they do to make their children happy. The intent is good. Though not every parent feels that way and does feel that even that is wrong. TBH I'm torn on the subject.

     

    I can't recall any 'brides' on here that have had good intentions with lying to their guests about the fact that they're already married. Even STB admitted that the lying was, at least in part, to make sure their guests had the "right" emotions and believe it to be their true wedding day. Lying to make your guests feel "in the moment" or similar is not having good intentions. It's being manipulative.

    What is so hard about telling your guests the truth? If your reasoning to get married before your 'wedding' is as sincere and legitimate as you claim, why NOT tell your guests? Some will judge, yes. But I bet many will come and support you and have an awesome time and will appreciate your honesty.

    Nobody likes being lied to with ill intentions. Nobody.

    I would also love to compare the divorce rate with people who decide to maybe two years later have a PPD compared the marriages that only last two years. 

    Don't make blanket statements and say "these comparisons" are "apples and oranges." Tell me, what comparisons are not really comparisons and WHY? This is how you debate something, with facts, not your opinions. Show me each of the comparisons that can not be made and why.

    The point I am trying to so desperately make is that you all said lying to your loved ones is wrong 100% percent of the time, period. Then, you preceded to call posters names degrading them for wanting to do so. My point is if lying is wrong 100% of the time then you can't cherry pick from the lies you deem socially acceptable. It just does't work that way. If you can't see that there is nothing I am going to say that will convince you otherwise. Thankfully, we are allowed to all have our different opinions.

    What's so hard about telling your kids the truth and not lying about Santa? That question makes no sense! Of course, it's not hard to lie. No one is going to debate you on that point. Why NOT tell your kids that the Easter bunny doesn't really exist? This is also being manipulative. If you don't think so then, you explain to me why not with facts, not your opinion. 

    You don't think the intent is good of women in these situations. That's right you just "think" you don't really know until your in the situations yourself. Your basing your conclusions on assumptions of what you think other women may or may not have been trying to do.    
    I think the difference between lying to your children about Santa and lying to your guests about your marriage status is who the "beneficiary" ends up being. The ultimate reason Santa/the Easter Bunny/the Tooth Fairy exist is to essentially give your children gifts. The children benefit. Yes, people are perfectly capable of giving gifts without the lie of it being from a mythical creature, but it adds to the magic of child hood. I, personally, wasn't devastated to find out any of these gift giving beings didn't exist, but was instead awed at how amazing my mom was for coming up with intricate Easter egg hunts and themed Christmas presents for 7 years. She did it because she loved me and wanted me to be happy. I benefited from the consequences of my mother's lie.

    But in the instance that someone felt the need to lie about or omit their marital status so I would attend their "wedding", I just don't see how a guest would be the beneficiary. If you can come up with an example where a guest would be truly happy to be lied to in that instance, I'll give credit where credit is due.
    So, now we have beneficiaries to lying? Wait, I thought lying was wrong ALL the time. That's what I just got done reading for 20 pages. Now suddenly, there are not only ok lies, but beneficiaries of lying. 

    My point is you can't present one thing as fact, but then not present it as fact in other areas of your life. If a lie is always wrong, then that's what it is, you can't change the definition later to fit your purpose. There are a lot of people that think it's wrong to lie to kids about these things. This is my point that these are all opinions. I completely respect your opinion and I am glad you have one.

    However, this thread wasn't made to hear opinions, it was made to tell women facts, one of which is that lying is NEVER right. Obviously, I am now hearing it depends on who is going benefit from the lie. This changes things a lot. I hope you can at least see the point I am trying to make. Share your opinions, but don't make this a sticky and represent it as cold hard facts. 

    It sounds like your mom was an awesome women! :)
    I never actually said all lying was bad- others might have, but I haven't. I do, however, think there is a distinction between lying to benefit yourself and lying to benefit others. And while I don't believe lying to benefit others is 100% OK all the time, I think it's better than lying to benefit oneself.

    Like I said, if someone can show me an instance where lying about one's marriage status in this kind of situation isn't to the benefit of anyone accept the couple in question, I'll acknowledge that it isn't always black and white. But I honestly can't think of a scenario that the lie isn't told for purely selfish reasons.

    And you're right =) my mother is an awesome woman. Easter eggs taped behind balloons and submerged in fish tanks, and a completely Ancient Egypt themed Christmas complete with a "mummified" giant bear and "canpopic jars" filled with little toys.
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    acove2006 said:

    Give me ONE good reason that guests shouldn't be made aware that they are witnessing a re-do ceremony and the "bride and groom" are actually husband and wife. Just one. And "it's none of their business" doesn't count because the moment you invited them to witness your "wedding" it became their business. What benefit will the guests get from the couple lying to them? Please enlighten me. The couple, on the other hand, thinks they get plenty of benefits. They get to dress up and do-over their wedding since their real wedding obviously wasn't good enough and lying to their guests is the only way they can achieve THEIR vision. The couple gets plenty of attention, presents, a party, and who knows what else. But all the guests receive is a big bag of bullshit.

     

    Just tell the truth. Slap on that tiara and pretend to be a bride again. I don't really care. But there isn't one good reason that lying to your guests is necessary.

    How are you not getting this? I am not debating any of these things. I AM NOT SAYING LYING IS RIGHT!!!!! I am not debating this fact so you do not have to try and further convince me, ok?! You and others on here said that lying is wrong 100% of the time, NOT ME. I just don't understand how you can be alright with one lie and not the other one. A lie is a lie is a lie. 

    How do these lies benefit our kids? Are they going to grow into awful adults if you don't lie to them about it? Your wasting your time continuing to repeat things that I am not even debating. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, because my points are getting lost in the redundancy. 


    Just tell your kids the truth. Slap on those big girl panties and don't pretend Santa is real. As you said, enjoyment is not a good enough reason to lie. 
    Oh good grief.  I'm one of those people who doesn't plan on telling her children that santa/the easter bunny is real because I'm not comfortable with the lie and actually remember being a little hurt as a child when I discovered the truth and that my parents had lied to me.  That said, you can't really be arguing that these lies are the same.    

    I value honesty more than I think a lot of people do, but even I still recognize that there are very different types of lies.  A lie that only serves to benefit yourself (getting people to come to your "wedding") is very different than a lie to spare someone's feelings (no, those jeans don't make your ass look fat) or to a child (santa brought you this toy).  Seriously, they are children, comparing them to fully developed adult human beings who are fully capable and have the right to make their own informed decisions is an insane oversimplification. 

    ETA bottom line, different rules apply to adults and children.  

    STUCK IN BOX

    Good grief is right! No, again for the last damn time NO. I am not arguing these lies are the same! I am arguing the fact that you all said lying is wrong 100% of time, so I gave you a comparison! That. Is. All. I can't explain it any better than that! 

    Types of lies? Now there are types of lies! I read for 20 pages that lying was wrong all the time especially to loved ones. I guess I will leave you guys to discussing what lies you want to justify and what lies you don't. SInce now these point you once made have now changed into a completely new one. Why can you say, no we were wrong, lying isn't wrong 100% of the time, it depends on situation. But, you don't say that and instead you try attacking things I never said!  

    No, there are not a different set of rules that apply to kids, sorry. It just doesn't work that way. Wait, you don't have kids? That's great you plan on doing that, but please remember this thread when your hiding Easter eggs one day. 
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    chibiyui said:

    I don't get why you keep hammering at the idea that because some of us might lie to our kids about Santa, its wrong to tell others its inappropriate to lie about their marital status. Thats like saying because I had a fender bender at 16, I can't teach my future kid to drive. Or that because I said a racial slur as a child I can't tell someone else using the slur that it's racist.

    What? I am not hammering the point, you are. This isn't about things you do as an adult vs. things you do as a kid. lol This is about lying!!! You all said lying was wrong, that's the point I am debating. However, now you are all are saying it depends on the situation...you changed the facts of your original argument to fit your purpose. 

    No, this is your entire point. I get it, your trying to be all "it comes down to the indiviual situation and who are you to judge" but almost everyone on here has said that they do that (IRL). I have seen, and know people who have had "PPD"s I understand and I get their reasoning, (of course, my examples involve either no lying or lie of omission because it was first trimester of a high risk pregnancy after a miscarriage)

    Lying is wrong. The indiviual weight of each lie varies person to person. I'm an adult, I'm capable of realizing the difference between my Mom lying about Santa and a friend lying about her marital status. Its wrong to lie to your kids about Santa, its wrong to lie to your guests about your marital status. It is culturally acceptable to lie to your kids about marriage, it is not culturally acceptable to lie about your marital status.
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    chibiyui said:
    chibiyui said:
    I don't get why you keep hammering at the idea that because some of us might lie to our kids about Santa, its wrong to tell others its inappropriate to lie about their marital status. Thats like saying because I had a fender bender at 16, I can't teach my future kid to drive. Or that because I said a racial slur as a child I can't tell someone else using the slur that it's racist.
    What? I am not hammering the point, you are. This isn't about things you do as an adult vs. things you do as a kid. lol This is about lying!!! You all said lying was wrong, that's the point I am debating. However, now you are all are saying it depends on the situation...you changed the facts of your original argument to fit your purpose. 
    No, this is your entire point. I get it, your trying to be all "it comes down to the indiviual situation and who are you to judge" but almost everyone on here has said that they do that (IRL). I have seen, and know people who have had "PPD"s I understand and I get their reasoning, (of course, my examples involve either no lying or lie of omission because it was first trimester of a high risk pregnancy after a miscarriage) Lying is wrong. The indiviual weight of each lie varies person to person. I'm an adult, I'm capable of realizing the difference between my Mom lying about Santa and a friend lying about her marital status. Its wrong to lie to your kids about Santa, its wrong to lie to your guests about your marital status. It is culturally acceptable to lie to your kids about marriage, it is not culturally acceptable to lie about your marital status.
    You all said lying was wrong all the time. That's all I was debating. I think I proved my point because you are debating something different now and that's what lies are ok and which ones are not. 
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    chibiyui said:


    chibiyui said:

    I don't get why you keep hammering at the idea that because some of us might lie to our kids about Santa, its wrong to tell others its inappropriate to lie about their marital status. Thats like saying because I had a fender bender at 16, I can't teach my future kid to drive. Or that because I said a racial slur as a child I can't tell someone else using the slur that it's racist.

    What? I am not hammering the point, you are. This isn't about things you do as an adult vs. things you do as a kid. lol This is about lying!!! You all said lying was wrong, that's the point I am debating. However, now you are all are saying it depends on the situation...you changed the facts of your original argument to fit your purpose. 
    No, this is your entire point. I get it, your trying to be all "it comes down to the indiviual situation and who are you to judge" but almost everyone on here has said that they do that (IRL). I have seen, and know people who have had "PPD"s I understand and I get their reasoning, (of course, my examples involve either no lying or lie of omission because it was first trimester of a high risk pregnancy after a miscarriage)

    Lying is wrong. The indiviual weight of each lie varies person to person. I'm an adult, I'm capable of realizing the difference between my Mom lying about Santa and a friend lying about her marital status. Its wrong to lie to your kids about Santa, its wrong to lie to your guests about your marital status. It is culturally acceptable to lie to your kids about marriage, it is not culturally acceptable to lie about your marital status.


    You all said lying was wrong all the time. That's all I was debating. I think I proved my point because you are debating something different now and that's what lies are ok and which ones are not. 

    *Bangs head against wall*


    I think you proved your point was incoherent.
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