Budget Culture Clash

PrettyGirlLost · May 2014

lebeers said:

rsbloom said:

I was a part of encouraging him to stand up to his mom, he lived at home almost until we moved in together. And before that, he spent a lot of time at my apartment. He wasn't used to not talking to or seeing his family everyday, and it was a difficult transition for him.I grew up with a LARGE family around me, and I learned to say no to things, because there was simply not enough time to please everyone, and do everything all my relatives asked me to. He only has his 4 person family out here, all his relatives are on the east coast.

We just had serious conversations about how the farther along we go, marriage, kids, the more we have to make our family unit the first priority. We are not going be able to go to their house every weekend, we are not going to be able to spend EVERY holiday with them. And I think it's harder because we moved in together and are planning the wedding, and I think his mom is upset to be "losing" her baby. But he has come around to making us a priority, and knows that we have to say no to some things.

As for the wedding, my FI's mom is an accountant and really a penny-pincher, and she had a few ways of pushing her ideas on us. One, she would pop up with something she thought was too expensive and catch everyone off guard and my FI, who wasn't aware of every little breakdown in the budget, would take her side, thinking it was really expensive. Other times, his mom would hear what we wanted and then try pushing her original plan for the wedding onto us, and ignore us.

She is also VERY good at playing the victim card when anyone disagrees with her, "Well, I guess I'm just an idiot then. I guess I just don't know anything." etc.. which was hard for FI to get over, he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

I want to note that his family is only paying for the flowers, so that's the place they get an input, even though she's tried dictating other areas.

For the first, I learned to sit down and show him what the financials looked like as well as average prices for things in our area, and it made more sense to him. We also decided to tell them, "We'll talk about it and let you know." That way whether we disagreed or agreed on an issue, we came back to them with one, united, answer.

For the second, he has told her repeatedly that it is OUR wedding, and yes they get a say in the budget for the flowers, but she doesn't get to dictate what everything looks like. When that didn't work, we tried going through his Dad. We talked to Dad on the side, got him on our page, and then went in on mom. Even though she found out that we did this, dad blabbed, and she was pissed at us, we got her to agree with us and she didn't back out. Also, sometimes dad didn't get through to her, so we went to her sister, whom she is very close to, and she got through to her.

As for the hurting her feelings part, he got sick of her trying to manipulate us like that. We've decided for other areas to not tell her any info unless she specifically asks, and bean dip with the "We'll talk about it and let you know."

@rsbloom,
Thanks so much for your awesome thoughtful contribution to my thread. And wow can I relate to a lot of the things you have said. Originally I thought you were one of the more critical responses and now I realize you are coming from a place of total understanding.

Our situation is a bit flipped because I lived with my very tight 4-person family for all my life (outside of college) and hung out at my FI's place quite often earlier in our relationship. My extended family is all out on the other coast and his is all within an our drive. So I hear where you are, but from the other side, in that regard.

Holidays are so hard. Most people don't understand just how challenging any given holiday can be within a totally loving, unified family. I took that for granted most of my life. When we started dating so many friends said "It's so great that you guys will never have to fight over whose parents' house you go to for Easter or Christmas!". I never realized that someone in his family may feel that going to my family's house means that we are choosing Christianity over Passover observance. That is awful, but that relative or those relatives are just being close-minded, intolerant asses if they can't understand that a person would want to spend a holiday with her family, and that it has nothing to do with religion. It sounds like this is going to be an issue that you will face with your FI's grandparents, because they seem to be more orthodox with their religious beliefs than FI's parents, you and FI. I would just be prepared to ignore any comments, hostilities, or guilt trips from them from now until they die. Not to sound insensitive, but FI's grandparents probably aren't going to change and will likely have these beliefs and attitudes until they die. At the core my FI and I maintain the same spiritual and religious beliefs, which are not necessarily what our parents practice. But we both believe in the importance of maintaining family in our lives and honoring our parents. Easier said than done.
For the sake of argument, my FIL are paying for the flowers, because in the NYC area that's about how much 10k will cover. Ugh. But we are still having arguments over everything including the food, the venue, the guest list, the band, the photographer...basically everything except the florist, actually. Stop discussing anything that your FILs are not financially contributing to with them. . . which means stop discussing the rest of the wedding with them, period.
MY FMIL is passive-aggressive in a different way. Rather than, "well, I guess I don't know anything then!"...she's more into the idea of "well, it is your wedding, but you've never planned a wedding...or a bar mitzvah...and I've planned MANY events...so you guys don't know what you're talking about." She's right that we've never planned a wedding because we haven't gotten married yet, or never planned a bar mitzvah because we haven't had kids yet. Sorry, mom-in-law, that we are not divorced with kids. Our mistake. Try to ignore these comments when she makes them, don't engage her, and change the subject as soon as she starts down this path. And again, stop discussing the wedding with her and change the subject if she brings it up.
Our families should not get to dictate everything that happens. I originally believed that our conception of our wedding would have been the awesome, offbeat and affordable wedding we wanted, but would also have been classy, fun, and would have honored and respected both of our families. It hurt me to hear that our "dream wedding" was not acceptable by my FIL standards.   I'm so sorry to hear this, it makes me sad As long as you were trying to respect both of your families and properly hosting everyone, that should be enough . . .especially since you and your FI are the ones paying for your wedding. If your wedding isn't up to your FILs or his family's standards then tough shit. They need to build a bridge and get the eff over themselves, frankly. They really sound like intolerant, controlling, pains in the asses. If they really loved your FI and valued their relationship with him, they would respect his decisions on how he wished to throw this party- because at the end of the day a wedding reception is just a glorified party. It seems petty, trivial, and ridiculous to cause a loved one so much angst over a damn party. I really thought us agreeing on a modest, inexpensive wedding would please our families; in my culture/family I had heard repeatedly that it was much more important that we save our family for a down payment on a house, our businesses, future children, things other than a big party.   Yes, those priorities make much more sense! My parents had 30 people at their appetizer-and-punch reception and thought it was a bit over the top!
But I also know that my FMIL is coming from a cultural place where she has only attended very large, traditional Jewish weddings in massive banquet halls, and she thinks that our ideas aren't legit wedding plans at all.   Too fucking bad! That's nice that she had the privilege to attend such lavish events. (She keeps reminding us that we invited 200 people to our last Halloween party...but we weren't paying $198/person at our Halloween house party. Nor did we hire a photographer or a florist or a band.) I wish she had been really straightforward with me about this from the beginning. When I originally pitched 150 guests back in September I thought that she was snickering because she thought it was too many.
So @rsbloom, I really feel you on the dip. My FMIL dodged the guest list request for months among other things. This was followed up by my FFIL apologizing and reminded us that "it's our wedding", which was actually really refreshing. The truth is that he understands the problems at large in a way that FMIL doesn't (especially financially) and probably won't ever try to understand. My FI jokes about the old cliche of asking mom if you can go out with friends and she says no...so then you try to ask dad without her knowing because you know he'll say yes. Or he says "ask your mother". Bummer.
We've been talking about finding a way to talk to FFIL without mama present to establish what elements and guests are truly essential to include. Then we can include FMIL in the next convo knowing the bottom line.

As some PP have pointed out, there's a big issue about money, but there's a separate big issue about culture. If my FI and I were billionaires and could afford any wedding we wanted, we would still probably encounter some of the same issues. To me I don't see it as a cultural issue- I think FI's family is using "culture" as a justification for their disrespectful, rude, intolerant, controlling, manipulative behavior and narrow world view. I'm also wondering if some members of FI's family really don't approve of the marriage because you aren't Jewish, and will never actually approve of the marriage. From what you have written here, I would just be prepared- both you and FI- to be at odds with his family and prepared to set boundaries and strictly enforce them. Also be prepared to live with their disapproval and objections to how you choose to do things. Don't give in- they need to learn to get over it.
bloom, thanks for your help, message me if you ever need a private wedding-vent-buddy

Still wishing you and your FI the best of luck in planning your wedding and your marriage.

DO NOT to anything you both don't want to do, no matter who throws a temper tantrum, a guilt trip, or threatens not to attend. Stand firm and united, don't talk to his family about details of the wedding that don't concern them, don't engage them in conversations about the wedding if they bring it up, and quickly change the subject or politley leave the room.

You guys got this!

annathy03 · May 2014

I'm sorry you're dealing with this OP, your FIs family is being ridiculous as you well know. I would decline the 10k and plan the smaller wedding that you and FI want. H and I took a lot of flack for not inviting his second cousins on the Greek side of his family, but at the end of the day it was our wedding and his family understood why we couldn't invite the cousins of one parent without inviting the cousins of all 4 (which would have put us over venue capacity).

Also as a side note, 10k for flowers? I got mine from costco.com's event floral section and they were 2 day air freighted to my house, beautiful, and very very inexpensive. I'd take a look at their packages and see if the flower types and colors they offer work with your vision. ETA: I don't mean to sound snotty about the flowers, if YOU want to spend that on them then by all means, I just get the impression you see a lot of scary costs adding up trying to please your in-laws. Hope it all works out

rsbloom · May 2014

Np OP, I'm here if you need to vent :]

lebeers · May 2014

annathy03 said:

I'm sorry you're dealing with this OP, your FIs family is being ridiculous as you well know. I would decline the 10k and plan the smaller wedding that you and FI want. H and I took a lot of flack for not inviting his second cousins on the Greek side of his family, but at the end of the day it was our wedding and his family understood why we couldn't invite the cousins of one parent without inviting the cousins of all 4 (which would have put us over venue capacity).

Also as a side note, 10k for flowers? I got mine from costco.com's event floral section and they were 2 day air freighted to my house, beautiful, and very very inexpensive. I'd take a look at their packages and see if the flower types and colors they offer work with your vision. ETA: I don't mean to sound snotty about the flowers, if YOU want to spend that on them then by all means, I just get the impression you see a lot of scary costs adding up trying to please your in-laws. Hope it all works out

Thanks so much for the advice! I'll post on our current thoughts in a few, but as for the flowers, I think it was probably the PP that posted a long similar issue to my own that referenced flowers, though I could be wrong. I could have been speaking very dramatically about florists because we live in a crazy expensive area. Flowers are pretty low on our list--not just because we're realizing how much we have to dish out for food and guest list in general, but just preference.
My fiance has a weird thing about flowers. For the first year or two I thought it was an excuse for never gifting me a bouquet. But he's explained that he thinks it's "profoundly unromantic to hire someone to nurture hundreds of beautiful blooms into existence...only to decapitate them for our own enjoyment so that we may watch them slowly wilt and die". Speaking of dramatic. Anyway, needless to say, our flower budget will probably be comparatively pretty small, and in our ideal budget wedding situation we planned to use the paper flowers/origami I like making when I'm bored. I realize some people may consider that tacky. What do you guys think?...Probably need to post separately about this idea. It's the least of our worries right now anyway.
Thanks @annathy03 for the Costco tip. I was considering alternative flower outlets but hadn't spoken to anyone who had utilized them.

GuitarSlayer · May 2014

Not much advice to offer to the OP, but I am sympathetic. I'm dealing with similar issues, and we're both Christians! Problem is, he's Texan Church of Christ (his mother was not allowed to dance, because it was sinful -- yes, Footloose is a documentary in some areas), and I'm NJ ex Catholic (now an Anglican, but we still party and drink hard). My parents asked me three questions regarding FI, "Does he drink? Does he beat you? Does he love you?" "No, no, and yes, both me and the cats." "Good. Have fun!"

His side: They're super conservative and traditional -- they wanted a bride with a certain religious pedigree and graduating from a certain university that was submissive and more or less be willing to give up her career for raising children properly.

So in short, I'm their idea of the anti-Christ.

I also get the Budget Culture Clash. They don't get the fact we want a low budget wedding -- FI's brother had one for at least $30k, ~50 (people went in and out the entire time...very strange), and it was to the above mentioned "model and make" his parents wanted. The mother in particular kept trying to steer FI toward $5k+ engagement rings, as she did for his brother. The wedding was at a country club, with 5 BM, 5 GM, MOH, BM (FI), sit down meal, cake, etc etc etc

In contrast, we're trying to keep it to about $5k, max 10-15 guests. FI and I are thinking $150 or so for a nice garnet and gold vintage ring for me. He was planning on using that as my wedding ring too so he could wear his gold Lord of the Rings One Ring he bought at a Comic Con for $30. Plans have changed slightly since my sister got us silver Han Solo-Leia Organa wedding bands. Since I'm the Han Solo of our partnership, the FI gets 'I love you' on his, I get 'I know' on mine. My parents are fine with our geekery -- I clearly inherited it from both of them -- and they spent about $1k on their wedding, plus $100 bar tab, back in 1979. They get the inflation thing, so $5k for our wedding is admirable in their eyes.

His parents think we're absolutely delusional about what a "real" wedding is, between ring thing and the fact that I'm the anti-Christ. They're not behind it, and they're showing it by not giving FI the same amount his brother received...about 95% less, no exaggeration. It's not about the money by any means, but it does hurt when they use money as an expression of affection....and you aren't getting the same as your brother. I feel bad for FI, but he and I are on the same page -- it's about us, not politics or their money games.

I guess I do have some advice after all. Have the wedding you want, but remember more the people who are supportive and totally cool with your wedding the way you want it, rather than those that want to stamp you out and have "their" wedding. Your parents will probably be more in the loop about the wedding, and they're the sure bets to show up. Celebrate them more, rather than mourning over those that took their ball and went home. It's difficult, but this is meant to be a happy and hopeful time in your life -- you're looking to the future with him, together. With all the stress being put on him, I make FI tell me one happy thing and one hope thing per day -- because all this other crap is temporary.

tortoisebride · May 2014

Paper flowers are totally not tacky. I must point out, however, that even with your ideal number of guests, if you do paper centerpieces you are going to have to make a lot of damn flowers. A lot.

My FI also is weird about real flowers. He has gotten me a potted African violet (two different times) and cupcakes that are frosted to look like flowers. He doesn't see the point in buying something that will just die in a few days. I was somewhat miffed about the fact that I will never get a real bouquet from him, but the fact that he managed to find a way to express flowers in my favorite medium (cake frosting!) has mollified me a bit. Anyway, it's nice to hear that someone else's dude is equally weird.

Cookie Pusher · May 2014

I'm having paper flowers for my wedding, and everyone who has seen them has gone crazy over them. They look like big ol' peonies or something. I've actually had several people ask if they can have my leftover ones and/or if they can hire me to make some for them in different colors. Best part? Centerpieces, bouquets, bouts, and corsages have cost me all of 25 bucks.

annathy03 · May 2014

lebeers said:

annathy03 said:

I'm sorry you're dealing with this OP, your FIs family is being ridiculous as you well know. I would decline the 10k and plan the smaller wedding that you and FI want. H and I took a lot of flack for not inviting his second cousins on the Greek side of his family, but at the end of the day it was our wedding and his family understood why we couldn't invite the cousins of one parent without inviting the cousins of all 4 (which would have put us over venue capacity).

Also as a side note, 10k for flowers? I got mine from costco.com's event floral section and they were 2 day air freighted to my house, beautiful, and very very inexpensive. I'd take a look at their packages and see if the flower types and colors they offer work with your vision. ETA: I don't mean to sound snotty about the flowers, if YOU want to spend that on them then by all means, I just get the impression you see a lot of scary costs adding up trying to please your in-laws. Hope it all works out

Thanks so much for the advice! I'll post on our current thoughts in a few, but as for the flowers, I think it was probably the PP that posted a long similar issue to my own that referenced flowers, though I could be wrong. I could have been speaking very dramatically about florists because we live in a crazy expensive area. Flowers are pretty low on our list--not just because we're realizing how much we have to dish out for food and guest list in general, but just preference.
My fiance has a weird thing about flowers. For the first year or two I thought it was an excuse for never gifting me a bouquet. But he's explained that he thinks it's "profoundly unromantic to hire someone to nurture hundreds of beautiful blooms into existence...only to decapitate them for our own enjoyment so that we may watch them slowly wilt and die". Speaking of dramatic. Anyway, needless to say, our flower budget will probably be comparatively pretty small, and in our ideal budget wedding situation we planned to use the paper flowers/origami I like making when I'm bored. I realize some people may consider that tacky. What do you guys think?...Probably need to post separately about this idea. It's the least of our worries right now anyway.
Thanks @annathy03 for the Costco tip. I was considering alternative flower outlets but hadn't spoken to anyone who had utilized them.

No problem! Also H's cousin is very crafty and did paper flowers for their wedding, and I thought they were awesome- but like PP said can be VERY time intensive, so that and your skill level should probably be the deciding factors. My centerpieces were 3 wine bottles I spray painted and put a single fake rose in each, hobby lobby and other craft stores routinely have 50% off their floral stems, I paid $1.50-$2.50 per rose depending on the size, and they also had pre-made bouquets. You have lots of options :-D

lebeers · May 2014

@guitarslayer I think you may be my long lost sister. Before all the crazy family stuff took over we were having a lot of fun planning our geeky wedding. My FI works in the video game industry and he was very excited about using game couples' names as table names, Star Wars cake toppers, and triforce wedding bands. It's been a bummer to shift from that fun stuff to looking at very stuffy country club venues that are not our style at all. And WAY out of our budget. I can't believe how much his cousins spent on their weddings. His cousin's wife was telling me that they invited about 450 people to the wedding and spent around $200 per person. Even if we had that kind of money we could never rationalizing spending that much on one big party. We're straddling two very different worlds and it seems like you can really relate. Thanks for reminding me that we need to go back to planning our wedding and working towards keeping them satisfied, not the other way around. And I think you're totally right that once we nail down the venue and the caterer my family will get much more involved in the more enjoyable personalized aspects of the wedding.

@tortoisebride - I am also concerned about handling all those paper flowers for a wedding of that size. It was my original plan when we were planning the small intimate wedding, but if we're dealing with a bazillion tables we may have to come up with a new plan.
And I'm glad to hear my FI isn't the only guy that is anti-bouquet. He has also bought me potted plants on a few occasions and I will say I have grown an appreciation for the gift that continues to give. Still working on my black thumb though.

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