Wedding Etiquette Forum

Black Tie on Invites?

Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

More details for those interested:
First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!


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Re: Black Tie on Invites?

  • lovegood90lovegood90 member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited December 2014
    If it's that big a deal to your family that this be named a black tie event, then why not just make it a true black tie event? If it's not truly black tie I wouldn't indicate it on the invites.

    If it's a "fancier" wedding with gowns etc, then if people inquire about attire I think it would be fine to let them know what you, the wedding party, etc are wearing so they get the idea. If they don't inquire and don't show up in gowns, then who cares? You'll still have an awesome wedding.

    ETA: Woops, just realized you said your venue requires black tie attire. I think then if it's a venue requirement you're fine to put it on the invites, someone correct me if I'm wrong?

    Formerly martha1818

    image


  • kao2015 said:
    Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

    TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

    More details for those interested:
    First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

    All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

    The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
    hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

    P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!


    What exactly does the venue's dress code say?



  • Viczaesar said:
    kao2015 said:
    Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

    TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

    More details for those interested:
    First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

    All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

    The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
    hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

    P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!


    What exactly does the venue's dress code say?
    I've never asked for the full details, actually. This is a place we go to semi-frequently (FILs are members), so I know parts of the dress code just from going for dinners and such. I know men have to wear at least a coat and tie, women are generally expected to wear a dress but a pants suit is fine. No tennis shoes, no jeans, nothing tattered. FI has been turned away before for not wearing appropriate pants (I think they were chinos).

    I also realize that it sounds ridiculous that I don't know all the details of the dress code, but because we are not actually the members of the club, my FMIL has had to make all of the arrangements for reserving the venue. Additionally, because we've been operating under the black tie assumption, I haven't been worried about people being turned away.
  • It is fine to alert guests to the dress code if it means they'd be turned away at the door, but it isn't proper to indicate "Black Tie" if it isn't truly a Black Tie wedding.
  • Yeah, in that case I'd just indicate what the venue dress code is without stating "black tie," unless it was actually a black tie event.

    Formerly martha1818

    image


  • If you are worried, could you just just change "stations" to seated meal if that is the only thing that makes it less than a black tie event?
  • If it's that big a deal to your family that this be named a black tie event, then why not just make it a true black tie event? If it's not truly black tie I wouldn't indicate it on the invites. If it's a "fancier" wedding with gowns etc, then if people inquire about attire I think it would be fine to let them know what you, the wedding party, etc are wearing so they get the idea. If they don't inquire and don't show up in gowns, then who cares? You'll still have an awesome wedding. ETA: Woops, just realized you said your venue requires black tie attire. I think then if it's a venue requirement you're fine to put it on the invites, someone correct me if I'm wrong?
    Venue does not require black tie, but it does have other requirements (coat and tie, for instance). I'm not generally concerned about that, but I would hate for someone to miss the memo and feel uncomfortable or not be allowed in!

    I would absolutely make it true black tie event if a seated dinner were feasible. I've thought a lot about that, actually. But, I think the size of the guest list is going to be a hindrance because of space issues. Plus, while we want everyone to have lots and lots of delicious food, we don't want them to be stuck at a table all night for five courses of food they may or may not like. While I understand the reason it's only black tie if you offer a multi-course seated meal, I also don't think it necessarily adds to your guests' comfort.

    I would prefer to do the latter option, actually. I absolutely do not think everyone should have to be in black tie attire--I do not want to give the impression that I want everyone to dress up just to fit into some wedding "vision" I have. My main concern is that everyone be happy and comfortable. I just don't know how to convince everyone to remove "Black Tie" from the invite. Because my FILs are paying, they've had a lot of say in how everything goes--not in a micro-managing sense, but the guest list, etc. And they want to put it on the invite. It's also relevant to note that they do not actually want to have a black tie event; they love the food station set-up. So I'm trying to balance the fact that they are paying for everything so they get the final say, which has generally not been an issue, with the fact that what they want is not actually good etiquette.
  • Yeah, in that case I'd just indicate what the venue dress code is without stating "black tie," unless it was actually a black tie event.
    It is fine to alert guests to the dress code if it means they'd be turned away at the door, but it isn't proper to indicate "Black Tie" if it isn't truly a Black Tie wedding.
    Is it appropriate to include that information in the invitation suite? And would you include all the details of the dress code, or would you leave off things that seem obvious? I don't want to offend anyone telling them not to wear tennis shoes, as if I think that's a real possibility.
  • Would a fair compromise be to include an insert that simply states "The Name of Venue requires black tie attire for all guests."? The thought just popped into my head because 1. It puts the accountability for mandating attire on the venue, not on you for just being controlling and picky, and 2. It alludes to black tie attire, as in the type/style of dress one would wear to a black tie event, without actually labeling the wedding as Black Tie.

    Otherwise, what about "The Name of Venue requires formal evening wear for all guests." or something similar?
  • Given the dress code and the fact your wedding really is 99% black tie, I'd probably just go ahead and do it for the sake of maintaining a relationship with your future in-laws. They're paying, so it really is their say in the end, and it isn't like we're talking about a cash bar or not having seats for people. To me, this is a pretty minor thing and not worth damaging your relationship with them.

    If we were talking about a wedding at a banquet hall with no dress code, no alcohol, a DJ, and a buffet with chicken wings, then yeah, that would totally not be okay and is more about controlling your guests. But considering the only thing keeping your wedding from being black tie is food stations vs. served courses, eh... I wouldn't judge, especially since the venue really does have a dress code.

    The dress code information should be an insert as part of your invitation suite. And since this is going to be black tie (or 99% black tie), that invitation suite needs to reflect it.

    If you end up ditching the black tie notation, you would still use an insert to state:

    "The Blah Blah Blah Club requires the following dress code:

    Men - suit coat or tuxedo, dark pants (no khakis), tie, no athletic shoes or sandals
    Women - skirt suit or suit, cocktail dress, evening gown, no athletic shoes, open-toed heels are allowed"

    That's a really rough outline, and I'm sure you could find better ones online. If the club posts theirs online, just copy/paste it. We did that when I had my birthday at the Signature Room. That left absolutely zero room for error, and if my friends had questions about it, they called the restaurant to clarify.
  • kao2015 said:
    Viczaesar said:
    kao2015 said:
    Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

    TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

    More details for those interested:
    First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

    All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

    The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
    hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

    P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!


    What exactly does the venue's dress code say?
    I've never asked for the full details, actually. This is a place we go to semi-frequently (FILs are members), so I know parts of the dress code just from going for dinners and such. I know men have to wear at least a coat and tie, women are generally expected to wear a dress but a pants suit is fine. No tennis shoes, no jeans, nothing tattered. FI has been turned away before for not wearing appropriate pants (I think they were chinos).

    I also realize that it sounds ridiculous that I don't know all the details of the dress code, but because we are not actually the members of the club, my FMIL has had to make all of the arrangements for reserving the venue. Additionally, because we've been operating under the black tie assumption, I haven't been worried about people being turned away.
    This isn't a black tie dress code, and you're not having a black tie event, so it is very inappropriate to indicate that your event is a black tie event on the invitation.  The only times you can state a dress code or event style on the invitation is when it's a true black tie event or when the venue has a dress code.  Your venue has a dress code so you can indicate that on the invitation, but you need to pass on the actual dress code - something like "The XYZ Club requires jacket and tie for gentlemen and a dress or slacks for ladies."  I'm sure there's a better way to word that, but the key thing is that you are just passing along necessary information about the venue to your guests, not elaborating on their requirements.



  • Viczaesar said:
    This isn't a black tie dress code, and you're not having a black tie event, so it is very inappropriate to indicate that your event is a black tie event on the invitation.  The only times you can state a dress code or event style on the invitation is when it's a true black tie event or when the venue has a dress code.  Your venue has a dress code so you can indicate that on the invitation, but you need to pass on the actual dress code - something like "The XYZ Club requires jacket and tie for gentlemen and a dress or slacks for ladies."  I'm sure there's a better way to word that, but the key thing is that you are just passing along necessary information about the venue to your guests, not elaborating on their requirements.
    I know this--which is the problem. My FILs don't, and they are footing the bill, which puts me in an unfortunate situation. Does anyone have a source for this etiquette rule? I believe it, but I've only been able to find rules about what guests wear to a black tie event, not rules about what is expected of hosts. I think because I'm outnumbered and don't have a point of reference, they just think I'm stressed about nothing. I'd really like to be able to say "according to emily post..." instead of "I read on the knot forums..."--I just can't find a source! I probably should have asked for this in the first place..
  • Does everyone you're inviting have a tux and/or gown?  Because if I decline an invitation to your fancy-pants wedding because I don't have appropriate attire, and find out I could have just worn my black suit, I'd be PISSED!
  • lovegood90lovegood90 member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited December 2014
    kao2015 said:


    Viczaesar said:


    This isn't a black tie dress code, and you're not having a black tie event, so it is very inappropriate to indicate that your event is a black tie event on the invitation.  The only times you can state a dress code or event style on the invitation is when it's a true black tie event or when the venue has a dress code.  Your venue has a dress code so you can indicate that on the invitation, but you need to pass on the actual dress code - something like "The XYZ Club requires jacket and tie for gentlemen and a dress or slacks for ladies."  I'm sure there's a better way to word that, but the key thing is that you are just passing along necessary information about the venue to your guests, not elaborating on their requirements.

    I know this--which is the problem. My FILs don't, and they are footing the bill, which puts me in an unfortunate situation. Does anyone have a source for this etiquette rule? I believe it, but I've only been able to find rules about what guests wear to a black tie event, not rules about what is expected of hosts. I think because I'm outnumbered and don't have a point of reference, they just think I'm stressed about nothing. I'd really like to be able to say "according to emily post..." instead of "I read on the knot forums..."--I just can't find a source! I probably should have asked for this in the first place..

    How about common sense? "Sorry FIL'S, but the venue dress code is different than black tie dress code. Since our wedding isn't a black tie event, I'm uncomfortable specifying a black tie dress code on the invites. Let's just include an insert stating what the venue dress code is."

    Formerly martha1818

    image


  • edited December 2014
    If we went through the trouble of renting a tux and evening gown just to find out a suit and cocktail dress were acceptable, we'd be pissed. Our venue has the same dress code as yours, and we didn't have any trouble with people showing up under-dressed. People got the hint from the venue and location that they should dress up beyond khakis and a polo.

    Edited to fix autocorrect.

    image
    image
  • Thanks everyone for your feedback. I will push back harder on this issue; I do want to be sure that our guests are happy and feel properly hosted. I would still appreciate if anyone can point me to any authoritative source on the issue--common sense has not yet prevailed so I don't think it would be helpful here.
  • Viczaesar said:
    This isn't a black tie dress code, and you're not having a black tie event, so it is very inappropriate to indicate that your event is a black tie event on the invitation.  The only times you can state a dress code or event style on the invitation is when it's a true black tie event or when the venue has a dress code.  Your venue has a dress code so you can indicate that on the invitation, but you need to pass on the actual dress code - something like "The XYZ Club requires jacket and tie for gentlemen and a dress or slacks for ladies."  I'm sure there's a better way to word that, but the key thing is that you are just passing along necessary information about the venue to your guests, not elaborating on their requirements.
    I know this--which is the problem. My FILs don't, and they are footing the bill, which puts me in an unfortunate situation. Does anyone have a source for this etiquette rule? I believe it, but I've only been able to find rules about what guests wear to a black tie event, not rules about what is expected of hosts. I think because I'm outnumbered and don't have a point of reference, they just think I'm stressed about nothing. I'd really like to be able to say "according to emily post..." instead of "I read on the knot forums..."--I just can't find a source! I probably should have asked for this in the first place..
    How about common sense? "Sorry FIL'S, but the venue dress code is different than black tie dress code. Since our wedding isn't a black tie event, I'm uncomfortable specifying a black tie dress code on the invites. Let's just include an insert stating what the venue dress code is."
    The bolded is precisely what I'm having a hard time convincing everyone of. But, I'll keep at it. It's hard to convince people who take etiquette very seriously that they may have missed something.
  • CMGragainCMGragain member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 25 Answers
    edited December 2014
    If you put "black tie" on your invitations, it means that you expect all of your male guests to wear tuxedos, and your female guests to wear evening gowns.  I think you will get a lot of declines because of this.  Tell THIS to your FI and relatives.  It is not your vendors' business to make this decision for you.
    httpiimgurcomTCCjW0wjpg
  • kao2015kao2015 member
    Second Anniversary 25 Love Its 10 Comments Name Dropper
    edited December 2014
    CMGragain said:
    If you put "black tie" on your invitations, it means that you expect all of your male guests to wear tuxedos, and your female guests to wear evening gowns.  I think you will get a lot of declines because of this.  Tell THIS to your FI and relatives.  It is not your vendors' business to make this decision for you.
    Yes, I understand all this and have from the beginning. That's not particularly at issue here, since we went into the whole "black tie" thing with eyes wide open--and also because the decline concern doesn't apply to about 2/3 of our guests because black tie dress codes are the norm for them.

    FWIW, our vendors are not deciding this. It's more that we asked for their feedback on the issue and FI and FILs trust their opinions since they are wedding professionals and theoretically should know better. This makes it harder for me to get any traction on the etiquette issue since I don't have anything to point them to that lays out these rules.
  • indianaalumindianaalum member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited December 2014
    kao2015 said:
    If it's that big a deal to your family that this be named a black tie event, then why not just make it a true black tie event? If it's not truly black tie I wouldn't indicate it on the invites. If it's a "fancier" wedding with gowns etc, then if people inquire about attire I think it would be fine to let them know what you, the wedding party, etc are wearing so they get the idea. If they don't inquire and don't show up in gowns, then who cares? You'll still have an awesome wedding. ETA: Woops, just realized you said your venue requires black tie attire. I think then if it's a venue requirement you're fine to put it on the invites, someone correct me if I'm wrong?
    Venue does not require black tie, but it does have other requirements (coat and tie, for instance). I'm not generally concerned about that, but I would hate for someone to miss the memo and feel uncomfortable or not be allowed in!

    I would absolutely make it true black tie event if a seated dinner were feasible. I've thought a lot about that, actually. But, I think the size of the guest list is going to be a hindrance because of space issues. Plus, while we want everyone to have lots and lots of delicious food, we don't want them to be stuck at a table all night for five courses of food they may or may not like. While I understand the reason it's only black tie if you offer a multi-course seated meal, I also don't think it necessarily adds to your guests' comfort.

    I would prefer to do the latter option, actually. I absolutely do not think everyone should have to be in black tie attire--I do not want to give the impression that I want everyone to dress up just to fit into some wedding "vision" I have. My main concern is that everyone be happy and comfortable. I just don't know how to convince everyone to remove "Black Tie" from the invite. Because my FILs are paying, they've had a lot of say in how everything goes--not in a micro-managing sense, but the guest list, etc. And they want to put it on the invite. It's also relevant to note that they do not actually want to have a black tie event; they love the food station set-up. So I'm trying to balance the fact that they are paying for everything so they get the final say, which has generally not been an issue, with the fact that what they want is not actually good etiquette.
    Obviously, it is up to you to change this, but I totally disagree that it makes for a bad experience for guests so you might want to consider a couple things before you decide this. 

    I think guests often prefer not to have to go around a room carrying a plate of food balancing it. That often can be a nuisance to guests, esp to older ones who can't get around so easily.

    I also disagree that a sit down meal is hard to manage based on size. I think sit down meals are WAY less chaotic for larger crowds. A good venue will also make sure they eat at the same time as they will have multiple waiters serving the tables, whereas food stations sometimes create long lines for guests thus creating them to eat in a LESS timely fashion. You also have people walking around more and create more chaos in the venue when a wedding is larger. If space is an issue, stations will give you LESS space as you will still need the same exact amount of tables PLUS you will need to fit in room for all the stations in the room. Having statiosn will make your venue space MORE crowded because of the additional stations and lines crowding around them. I REALLY hope you know you still need tables for all your guests if you have stations, right??? You aren't thinking they can just walk around and eat in a "cocktail" way by standing. People still need SEATS


    If you are worried, they wouldn't like any of the food, give them choices. That is pretty common to give guests a menu option ahead of time.  

    Chances are that if you were to serve a 5 course meal, there is something in that 5 courses that will fill your guests up esp if they get to choose, chicken, beef or fish, vegetarian kinda deal

    Just some food for thought on that matter. 

    Obviously, if you don't like the thought of a sit down meal, that's fine, but I am not sure your "reasons" listed were necessarily accurate n case that is what was swaying you
  • adk19 said:
    Does everyone you're inviting have a tux and/or gown?  Because if I decline an invitation to your fancy-pants wedding because I don't have appropriate attire, and find out I could have just worn my black suit, I'd be PISSED!
    I thin this is an important fact. I think black tie weddings are a "know your crowd" thing. In my circle, I would have had a ton of people decline if I had done that since it is a costly thing and most people I know dont own them. If you think your crowd isnt accustomed to that, you might want to speak up thenn
  • Using Google, I found no expert on black tie weddings for you to cite. That said, could you try a different approach with your FILs? 

    I would say that my friends do not own tuxedos and I don't want them to have to pay for a tuxedo; that it's a strain on young people's budgets. Ask if you can compromise and include the club's dress code on your invitation or website? I would put on your invitation's information card that the club requires jackets and ties for men. Then say that for additional information, see blankblank website, where you can copy the code verbatim. 

    If all else fails and you just can't win the argument with them, I'd just spread the word among my friends and family that men can wear a suit. 
  • kao2015 said:


    Viczaesar said:


    kao2015 said:

    Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

    TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

    More details for those interested:
    First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

    All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

    The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
    hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

    P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!



    What exactly does the venue's dress code say?

    I've never asked for the full details, actually. This is a place we go to semi-frequently (FILs are members), so I know parts of the dress code just from going for dinners and such. I know men have to wear at least a coat and tie, women are generally expected to wear a dress but a pants suit is fine. No tennis shoes, no jeans, nothing tattered. FI has been turned away before for not wearing appropriate pants (I think they were chinos).

    I also realize that it sounds ridiculous that I don't know all the details of the dress code, but because we are not actually the members of the club, my FMIL has had to make all of the arrangements for reserving the venue. Additionally, because we've been operating under the black tie assumption, I haven't been worried about people being turned away.

    The venues dress code is not black tie. Black tie attire is a tux and floor length gowns.


    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • If I were you, I'd keep telling them that you don't feel comfortable putting black tie on the invites. Go with examples that PPs mentioned on here (worried that people will decline, etc). I'd then include a separate note in the invites that states the venue's dress code. 
  • kao2015 said:


    Viczaesar said:


    kao2015 said:

    Long-time lurker, first time poster--I was hoping y'all could help me on an etiquette issue I'm having with the invitations. Sorry it's long and a bit rambling!

    TL;DR: Our wedding will have most but not all of the trappings of a true black tie event, and everyone involved in the planning (except me) insists on putting "Black Tie" on the invites. Is this a hill I should be willing to die on? Or is the etiquette rule obscure enough that I should just let it go?

    More details for those interested:
    First, the wedding/reception actually is going to be very formal. The venue is a private club that has a strict dress code, the staff members at the club wear black tie at all times,  the bridesmaids will be in gowns, all the male BP members in tuxedos, our save the dates and invitations have been fancy (though not completely traditional), etc.. Second, it will be very well hosted (top shelf open bar, valet, live band, and so on). However, it will not have all the trappings of a black tie event. The biggest issue is that we are doing food stations instead of a served dinner for logistical reasons.

    All of this is fine, since I don't particularly care about having a wedding that is actually black tie. However, FI, FILs, our planner, and our stationery designer all insist on putting "Black Tie" on the invitation, as if it were actually a black tie event. At the beginning of the planning process, I was on board with having a "black tie" wedding, since I didn't know about all of the things required to make an event truly black tie. But, all the lurking I've done on this board in particular has enlightened me, and I don't want to offend anyone by having black tie on the invite and it not being up to par.

    The reasons everyone else wants to put it on the invite are twofold. First, there are many, many events in this social circle that ask for black tie attire but that are missing the served dinner component--these events are not just weddings, but also galas and deb balls. So I've been getting a lot of the "everyone does it this way" explanation from everyone. This is the same logic people who have cash bars use, and I just do not want people to think of me the same way I think of people who think it's a good idea to have a cash bar or dollar dance or whatever. However, the second reason is that there actually is a dress code for the venue, as I mentioned above. Instead of trying to convince everyone to go to the website to read about the dress code or putting a ridiculous dress code insert in the invitation suite, putting black tie is just a more clear cut way to ensure all of our guests will be allowed in the club. This is the only reason I think it might be a good idea, but I still worry about the etiquette issue. However, everyone else is pushing back
    hard. Is this something I need to put my foot down on? I'm generally passive and just don't want to fight a battle that's not necessary/will not make a meaningful impact on our guests' comfort.

    P.S. I know brides come on here all the time looking for people to validate their shitty etiquette. While I would genuinely love to hear that this is only a minor issue and is not worth the conflict/stress, I also welcome any and all guidance on convincing everyone that we should take it off the invites. FI is open to taking it off, but his parents (who are paying) and our planner/designer generally dismissed my suggestion that it's bad etiquette and I'm not sure what to say except "it's rude to tell people to dress for a level of formality our event does not actually meet". Annnnd end of my rant!



    What exactly does the venue's dress code say?

    I've never asked for the full details, actually. This is a place we go to semi-frequently (FILs are members), so I know parts of the dress code just from going for dinners and such. I know men have to wear at least a coat and tie, women are generally expected to wear a dress but a pants suit is fine. No tennis shoes, no jeans, nothing tattered. FI has been turned away before for not wearing appropriate pants (I think they were chinos).

    I also realize that it sounds ridiculous that I don't know all the details of the dress code, but because we are not actually the members of the club, my FMIL has had to make all of the arrangements for reserving the venue. Additionally, because we've been operating under the black tie assumption, I haven't been worried about people being turned away.

    The venues dress code is not black tie. Black tie attire is a tux and floor length gowns.



    I understand that; I would not be fighting this battle with FILs if I didn't understand that the venue dress code =\= black tie dress code.
  • If your the people in your circle are used to very formal events, and the invitations, the venue, and the time of day all convey the formality of the wedding, you should trust your guests to dress appropriately without being told.

    Or you could do the plated dinner to make it actually black tie. Logistically, walking around to food stations is not ideal when wearing a long gown and high heels.


    Wedding Countdown Ticker



  • Not sure if it's rude or not, but I would rather know it's that formal than be horrified and embarrassed about being turned away. I won't dress up that much unless I hear that I'm supposed to. 

    Although why not go the extra mile and make it true black tie?
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    image

  • If you aren't having a black tie affair or don't want to make your guests wear true black tie attire then don't put "black tie" on the invitation.

    I would call up the venue where you are having your wedding and get the dress code details directly from them.  Then put these details on an insert that you will then put in your invitation.  If you have a wedding website put the details about attire on there as well.

  • Why not just make it "black tie optional" on the invites?  That is what we are doing, that's what most weddings I attend have been, that way if you have the black tie options you can wear them and if not, you know to be as dressed up as you can be.

    I will say that my FI and I were recently invited to a wedding that had NO dress code on the invites.  Luckily I looked at their wedding website where it said the dress code was "formal" otherwise we would have packed far more casual clothing being as it's outdoors at 3 pm.  It really pissed me off that it wasn't on the invite because I know a lot of people won't bother looking at the wedding website to find the info.
    image


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