A Go Fund Me Christmas Story....

l9i · December 2014

novella1186 said:

lolo883 said:

l9i said:

lolo883 said:

l9i said:

chibiyui said:

I'm surprised at how victim blamey this thread is. I don't care if she had a neon flashing sign that said "Steal my shit" pointing at her car, it's not her fault someone stole from her. Bad choices does not equal blame or fault if somebody wrongs you.

Which is why I previously said this could get into a whole other discussion.
To clarify - yes the person that stole is at fault. However we live in an imperfect world where people steal shit. Can you look at this and say it could have been easily avoided? Yes. Ergo IMO there is some responsibility on her part.
I am not blaming her saying "Good, she left her car unlocked, she was asking for it" but it is common sense to lock your car and that lack of action may have consequences. I'm sad things like this are even an issue, but no matter what there will always be bad people.

Most things in life can be avoided in some way or another. That STILL doesn't shift the blame. At all. This isn't like getting into a car accident because you were speeding or drunk - in that case, you brought a bad situation on yourself by doing something that's already bad/illegal/etc. You don't tell a cancer patient "eeshhh well... you should have eaten better/got more screenings/been more active. Truth hurts sucker, but you could have avoided this, so I don't really feel bad for you." Someone did an illegal thing by entering a car which they did not have permission to enter. They then did another illegal thing by taking items they did not have permission to take. Agreed The fact that it was avoidable does NOT make this excusable and should NOT make anyone shrug it off like "eh, she had it coming" because then you get desensitized to what the actual BAD thing was. Never said anything along the lines.

Saying "this is gonna bring on a discussion" doesn't really ever stop the discussion from happening. Yes, but it's a way of saying 'I'll share a point but only a snippet because it can lead to an off topic discussion.' The topic is more just sharing another use of GFM I didn't find appropriate, not a discussion on vicim blaming. I really didn't say that to tell people how to post because that's pointless.

I know you didn't necessarily say those things, but I think it's a slippery slope. I don't think when someone has seen the brunt end of the shit stick people should say "wellllll it was KIND OF your fault..." That's all.

Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

You put this in a great way of I think what I was trying to convey with lolo. I know fault isn't right at all, but what you're getting at is what I'm getting at. On a more serious note similar (hard to think of a comparison) to stranger danger you teach children. A method of avoiding bad people doing bad things. ... or did I miss the mark on a comparison?

novella1186 · December 2014

banana468 said:

IMO, it makes sense to say, "Come on! Lock your doors to prevent the bad people from getting your stuff!"

But that doesn't mean that it's OK to steal if it's easy to take the stuff. The thief is the one at fault here.

Yeah, I agree. I mean stealing is stealing no matter what, and there's never gonna be a situation where I'm like "yeah, totally good idea to steal!" but I think there's a difference between pointing out common-sense things and actually placing blame on the victim, ya know? But maybe you can't do one without the other? Who knows.

teddygirl9 · December 2014

Victim blaming. Not ok in a robbery and not ok in a rape. That's like saying it's okay to rape someone who is passed out drunk on the street because she's an easy target. Please stay away from doing that.

That is a terrible situation, and I'm glad people were so generous to donate! I hope she pays it forward and donates as well.

ETA: If someone wants the shit in your car, having the doors locked wont make a difference. In fact, it's probably better, because then at least you won't have a broken window AND your shit gone =\

beethery · December 2014

FI put it this way when he chained the generator to the house, "If someone wanted to steal it, they'd steal it. This chain, and locked doors, are just keeping honest people honest."

novella1186 · December 2014

beethery said:

FI put it this way when he chained the generator to the house, "If someone wanted to steal it, they'd steal it. This chain, and locked doors, are just keeping honest people honest."

That's another thing about this story, is I feel like even if she had locked her car doors, someone could've just smashed a window and stolen from her anyway. If someone really wants to do something and they're already willing to break the law, then they'll do it anyway. It just sucks.

theartistformerlyknownas · December 2014

novella1186 said:
Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

Of course there is. You can say something like "hopefully she'll keep her doors locked in the future" or "let this be a reminder to bring your gifts inside, and it's a good idea not to keep them in front of a window" or "it's really too bad she forgot to lock her car." But the OP's actual phrase was "Now this is the part where I'll turn into a grinch.... doesn't that make it your own fault?" which is absolutely blamey and not ok.

abl13 · December 2014

.

novella1186 · December 2014

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:
Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

Of course there is. You can say something like "hopefully she'll keep her doors locked in the future" or "let this be a reminder to bring your gifts inside, and it's a good idea not to keep them in front of a window" or "it's really too bad she forgot to lock her car." But the OP's actual phrase was "Now this is the part where I'll turn into a grinch.... doesn't that make it your own fault?" which is absolutely blamey and not ok.

I agree the purple text is blamey, but I also feel like there's a tendency sometimes to not even allow the bolded phrase. (not saying you would do this, it's just IRL, in social media, on these boards, wherever) It seems like people are almost looking for disagreements and would pounce on the bolded phrase with "that's victim blaming and it's wrong!" even though, in my mind, that phrase is just stating some common sense, not placing blame. Ya know?

theartistformerlyknownas · December 2014

novella1186 said:

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:
Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

Of course there is. You can say something like "hopefully she'll keep her doors locked in the future" or "let this be a reminder to bring your gifts inside, and it's a good idea not to keep them in front of a window" or "it's really too bad she forgot to lock her car." But the OP's actual phrase was "Now this is the part where I'll turn into a grinch.... doesn't that make it your own fault?" which is absolutely blamey and not ok.

I agree the purple text is blamey, but I also feel like there's a tendency sometimes to not even allow the bolded phrase. (not saying you would do this, it's just IRL, in social media, on these boards, wherever) It seems like people are almost looking for disagreements and would pounce on the bolded phrase with "that's victim blaming and it's wrong!" even though, in my mind, that phrase is just stating some common sense, not placing blame. Ya know?

Yeah I think in that case it's just about context and tone (which is definitely hard to convey via text). "Oh that's really sad, hopefully she'll keep her doors locked so another crime of convenience isn't so easy in the future" versus "STBY. Close your doors next time, dummy."

For the record, I don't think OP fosters any ill-intent like that and hasn't given me any reason to think she's gonna go everhate on us.

anjemon · December 2014

novella1186 said:

beethery said:

FI put it this way when he chained the generator to the house, "If someone wanted to steal it, they'd steal it. This chain, and locked doors, are just keeping honest people honest."

That's another thing about this story, is I feel like even if she had locked her car doors, someone could've just smashed a window and stolen from her anyway. If someone really wants to do something and they're already willing to break the law, then they'll do it anyway. It just sucks.

There is something to this, although I know in my area I have heard that people will just walk around trying car doors. Busting windows is louder and more obvious. But you can just open car doors and nobody will be able to tell that you don't belong there. And it probably feels less illegal to people.

novella1186 · December 2014

anjemon said:

novella1186 said:

beethery said:

FI put it this way when he chained the generator to the house, "If someone wanted to steal it, they'd steal it. This chain, and locked doors, are just keeping honest people honest."

That's another thing about this story, is I feel like even if she had locked her car doors, someone could've just smashed a window and stolen from her anyway. If someone really wants to do something and they're already willing to break the law, then they'll do it anyway. It just sucks.

There is something to this, although I know in my area I have heard that people will just walk around trying car doors. Busting windows is louder and more obvious. But you can just open car doors and nobody will be able to tell that you don't belong there. And it probably feels less illegal to people.

This is true. I know some people do just look for easy targets. But it gets to a certain point where it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

hellosweetie1015 · December 2014

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:
Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

Of course there is. You can say something like "hopefully she'll keep her doors locked in the future" or "let this be a reminder to bring your gifts inside, and it's a good idea not to keep them in front of a window" or "it's really too bad she forgot to lock her car." But the OP's actual phrase was "Now this is the part where I'll turn into a grinch.... doesn't that make it your own fault?" which is absolutely blamey and not ok.

I agree the purple text is blamey, but I also feel like there's a tendency sometimes to not even allow the bolded phrase. (not saying you would do this, it's just IRL, in social media, on these boards, wherever) It seems like people are almost looking for disagreements and would pounce on the bolded phrase with "that's victim blaming and it's wrong!" even though, in my mind, that phrase is just stating some common sense, not placing blame. Ya know?

Yeah I think in that case it's just about context and tone (which is definitely hard to convey via text). "Oh that's really sad, hopefully she'll keep her doors locked so another crime of convenience isn't so easy in the future" versus "STBY. Close your doors next time, dummy."

For the record, I don't think OP fosters any ill-intent like that and hasn't given me any reason to think she's gonna go everhate on us.

Chiming in because: I think the disconnect with Novella may be coming from the (possibly perceived) ... inequities. In the thread that finally got rid of Everhart, she was saying, "Well, you should have watched your drink better." Which EVUHRYONE (myself included) (and rightly so) jumped all over her.

In this thread, I think, the difference is that l9i is not the one who was robbed, so it is yes, okay to say "She should keep her doors locked from now on" where in the other thread it was not "she" but "you" - "you should watch your drink better."

That's the difference to me. Because there's no way in hell I'd tell a person, "Maybe next time you'll keep your doors locked" after they've been robbed - because there's no way in hell that I see that not coming across as blaming the person against whom the crime was committed.

ETA I totally will say it here - I live in the middle of nowhere. I used to live in the middler of nowhere. I have a 150ish pound dog (who is afraid of the scales). Our driveway used to be so bad nobody could get up it without special training. I still always lock my car. While it's certainly not her fault shitty people are shitty and opportunistic, she really ought to have locked her car because it is much less likely to have happened.....

novella1186 · December 2014

hellosweetie1015 said:

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:
Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

Of course there is. You can say something like "hopefully she'll keep her doors locked in the future" or "let this be a reminder to bring your gifts inside, and it's a good idea not to keep them in front of a window" or "it's really too bad she forgot to lock her car." But the OP's actual phrase was "Now this is the part where I'll turn into a grinch.... doesn't that make it your own fault?" which is absolutely blamey and not ok.

I agree the purple text is blamey, but I also feel like there's a tendency sometimes to not even allow the bolded phrase. (not saying you would do this, it's just IRL, in social media, on these boards, wherever) It seems like people are almost looking for disagreements and would pounce on the bolded phrase with "that's victim blaming and it's wrong!" even though, in my mind, that phrase is just stating some common sense, not placing blame. Ya know?

Yeah I think in that case it's just about context and tone (which is definitely hard to convey via text). "Oh that's really sad, hopefully she'll keep her doors locked so another crime of convenience isn't so easy in the future" versus "STBY. Close your doors next time, dummy."

For the record, I don't think OP fosters any ill-intent like that and hasn't given me any reason to think she's gonna go everhate on us.

Chiming in because: I think the disconnect with Novella may be coming from the (possibly perceived) ... inequities. In the thread that finally got rid of Everhart, she was saying, "Well, you should have watched your drink better." Which EVUHRYONE (myself included) (and rightly so) jumped all over her.

In this thread, I think, the difference is that l9i is not the one who was robbed, so it is yes, okay to say "She should keep her doors locked from now on" where in the other thread it was not "she" but "you" - "you should watch your drink better."

That's the difference to me. Because there's no way in hell I'd tell a person, "Maybe next time you'll keep your doors locked" after they've been robbed - because there's no way in hell that I see that not coming across as blaming the person against whom the crime was committed.

ETA I totally will say it here - I live in the middle of nowhere. I used to live in the middler of nowhere. I have a 150ish pound dog (who is afraid of the scales). Our driveway used to be so bad nobody could get up it without special training. I still always lock my car. While it's certainly not her fault shitty people are shitty and opportunistic, she really ought to have locked her car because it is much less likely to have happened.....

Yeah it was pretty damn clear in that crazy thread that everhart was way way way out of line. I think I was the first (?) to pounce on her for that victim-blaming bullshit. But this thread made me start to wonder, in THIS situation, have we become so touchy about being PC that it's considered wrong, here, in THIS particular set of circumstances, when we aren't speaking directly to the victim, to point out that she clearly did a thing that lacked common sense?

ETA: and just to be clear, the OP in the other thread did NOT do a thing that lacked common sense. That situation was just very sad, but this one is much different.

theartistformerlyknownas · December 2014

@hellosweetie1015 I don't think @novella1186 and I actually have that big of a disconnect. Yes, there's a difference between talking TO the victim that way and talking ABOUT the victim. But calling out the lack of common sense is also wholly different from saying "doesn't that make it your own fault." No, it does not make it her fault, whether you say that to her face or not.

hellosweetie1015 · December 2014

lolo883 said:

@hellosweetie1015 I don't think @novella1186 and I actually have that big of a disconnect. Yes, there's a difference between talking TO the victim that way and talking ABOUT the victim. But calling out the lack of common sense is also wholly different from saying "doesn't that make it your own fault." No, it does not make it her fault, whether you say that to her face or not.

@lolo883 I didn't think it was you and novella, specifically, with the disconnect, I just thought it was a disconnect in general, because it was there for me too. I can see the victim blaming for sure, 100% - it wasn't her fault she got robbed. But I also see that there's definitely a thing that she clearly, blatantly failed to do that could have possibly - and possibly easily - prevented it, that someone should be allowed to point out without being called out for victim blaming in a general forum (which, again, there was some of that [eta: "that" being victim blaming. See last sentence in my post.] in this thread, but I think it was because it was such an obvious failure to prevent in the lady's case. Doesn't make it her fault but it does play into the why it happened to her, if that makes sense.).

I dunno, disconnect and inequity were both bad words but I didn't know what the good ones were. My words don't want to work today.

chibiyui · December 2014

I think the main issue I personally have with stuff like this, is that it tends to dissolve into "The victim shouldn't have done that" rather then "It sucks that someone did that to the victim"

Of course you should lock your doors. You should always do what you can to minimize risk. But it's not practical to just be like "This wouldn't have happened if you locked your doors". Just like there will always be shitty people out there, there will always be people who do what they are supposed to do and still get victimized.

SBmini · December 2014

Do I think it isn't tacky to ask for money because something sort of bad happens to you? Yes.

But do you know what I think is tackier? Shaming, looking down on and gossiping about people because you don't agree with what they are doing.

If someone is doing a Go Fund Me and you don't agree with it. Move on. I don't see the point in sharing it with a group of strangers. I personally find this behavior just as low brow as setting up a Go Fund Me for stolen Christmas gifts.

So those are my thoughts.

beethery · December 2014

I'm still hung up on the broken penis mention.

huskypuppy14 · December 2014

lolo883 said:

FYI, it is still illegal to take something from an unlocked car. Hell, it's illegal to take something from a convertible with the top down, or off someone's front porch. It's unlawful entry and theft regardless of whether you had to break into anything to take the items. The fault here still lies with the criminal, same as with any other crime we wouldn't blame the victim for. Whether or not you could have prevented something doesn't make ANYTHING less of a crime. Ever. End of story.

That said, it's not anyone else's responsibility to replace them except her homeowner's insurance.

Thank you. Reading these responses was making me angry. I live in a house on a main road with a long driveway. I feel safe not locking my car, because if someone is coming up here uninvited, the fact that my car or house is unlocked is probably not going to stop them. I usually lock it, and it's in the garage, but that's beside the point.

When I lived in the city, of course I locked my car all the time, but if I forgot, it's not like I"m asking to get robbed. Victim blaming is not cool, no matter what the crime.

At my parents house we leave the keys in our cars and in 30 years, no one has stolen a car. For the longest time they kept their house unlocked during the day. If someone wants to break in, they'll find a way.

I don't agree with the Go fund me though.

l9i · December 2014

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:

lolo883 said:

novella1186 said:
Just chiming in to ask a question. Is it possible to make a logical comment, such as "it's a good idea to keep your car doors locked" without sounding victim-blamey? I mean there's a reason car doors have locks. If you have a ton of valuable stuff in your car, protect it by locking the car. Saying she should have locked it is not saying it's her FAULT stuff got stolen. The thief is the only one at fault. But can't people point out some common sense thing like that without implying the victim is at fault? Really, just curious to know opinions on this.

And obviously this is the ONLY situation where I would even pose such a question because luckily the woman was not physically harmed at all, and just material possessions were stolen. So that's the only reason why I wonder if, in this particular instance, a person could point out "well lock the car, duh!" without it seeming as if they're saying "it's her fault" or "she had it coming"

Of course there is. You can say something like "hopefully she'll keep her doors locked in the future" or "let this be a reminder to bring your gifts inside, and it's a good idea not to keep them in front of a window" or "it's really too bad she forgot to lock her car." But the OP's actual phrase was "Now this is the part where I'll turn into a grinch.... doesn't that make it your own fault?" which is absolutely blamey and not ok.

I agree the purple text is blamey, but I also feel like there's a tendency sometimes to not even allow the bolded phrase. (not saying you would do this, it's just IRL, in social media, on these boards, wherever) It seems like people are almost looking for disagreements and would pounce on the bolded phrase with "that's victim blaming and it's wrong!" even though, in my mind, that phrase is just stating some common sense, not placing blame. Ya know?

Yeah I think in that case it's just about context and tone (which is definitely hard to convey via text). "Oh that's really sad, hopefully she'll keep her doors locked so another crime of convenience isn't so easy in the future" versus "STBY. Close your doors next time, dummy."

For the record, I don't think OP fosters any ill-intent like that and hasn't given me any reason to think she's gonna go everhate on us.

To the purple I believe I tried to clarify early on. "Fault" is not the right word, I do agree. It is the robbers fault 100%.

Honestly, my biggest problem with this situation is that it seemed greedy, not that she didn't lock her car. They knowingly left the GFM open above their goal so "more people could donate". So the person now has 2 to 3 times more to replace the gifts (nothing was broken to get into the car). It only came out after the GFM that "oh, the value was only 400 and I raised over 1500"

And lolo you're correct, I very much so do not wish on anyone for their Christmas presents to get stolen.... and I will not go everhate haha. Side note: I've seen past craziness but I think I missed this reference where she's now gone.

theycallmelinz · December 2014

beethery said:

I'm still hung up on the broken penis mention.

Obviously I don't know the details (unfortunately) but that's what the post said. I can't find it to copy and paste but it was something like "You broke his penis and it took me this long to fix it/blah blah blah." I'm still searching for the original post haha.

As for victim blaming, I think there is a big difference in saying "Be sure to lock your doors/Watch your drinks in a bar" and saying "Well that's what you get for leaving your doors unlocked/not paying attention to your drink you drunk, irresponsible floozy." No one deserves to be victimized, EVER. However we can all look for/exercise ways to avoid being a victim.

A Go Fund Me Christmas Story....

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