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If the presidential election were tomorrow...

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Re: If the presidential election were tomorrow...

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    TrixieJessTrixieJess member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    edited August 2015
    Wait, @AprilH218 so you think the Clintons' are, like, having people murdered? Like, you actually just suggested one of your reasons for not voting for Hillary is a weird conspiracy theory of violent deaths? Every time I remind myself that there are lots of lovely totally sane Republicans y'all go proving me wrong again.

    No, I don't think that they are murdering people. I'm just saying that there is a fairly lengthy list of friends and coworkers who are dead by violent/suspicious means.
    And? Either you're somehow blaming these deaths on the Clintons or no. Frankly, that argument makes everything else you have to say sound unhinged. Right. You're just saying people close to them just happen to die. It's not a psycho conspiracy theory at all, you just don't understand why you can't see the whole birth certificate in long form.
    I think this is really unfair and obviously not what April meant. She is simply saying that she is going to hold it against Hilary that her sworn blood enemies get violently murdered right after Hilary and Bills illuminati meetings with Donald trump and satanic rituals. Not saying that the Clinton's are responsible though. Also maybe don't talk about white privlege if you have no idea what it is( hint- it's not beig rich) But in a delicious bit of irony- can anyone name who was President when there were first reports of the thousand dollar toilet seats? The year was 1986....
    That would be Reagan - Btw, I'm Canadian and I know that. 

    PS I only know that because he was all buddy-buddy with our PM at the time. Free trade agreement and all.
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    Reagan also appointed Terrel Bell as Secretary of Education with the goal of dismantling the department and national education like @aprilh218 would like.  Guess what happened?

    Bell went native and not only changed his tune about the importance of a national education program, resigned from his position due to Reagan's budget cuts to his department and dedicated the remainder of his career to improving education.  There is even a loan program in his name in his home state of Utah to encourage high school seniors to consider teaching.
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    Reagan also appointed Terrel Bell as Secretary of Education with the goal of dismantling the department and national education like @aprilh218 would like.  Guess what happened?

    Bell went native and not only changed his tune about the importance of a national education program, resigned from his position due to Reagan's budget cuts to his department and dedicated the remainder of his career to improving education.  There is even a loan program in his name in his home state of Utah to encourage high school seniors to consider teaching.
    I don't think anyone argues against the importance of education. However, I don't think it is very clear what would be the best way to go about providing education. The one thing we know to be true is that the current system fails miserably and it fails those who need it the most.
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    Reagan, from a Canadian, though I know nothing about toilet seats.  

    Just a quick question, why is all the press about the Republicans and nothing about the Democrats??   Have they already picked their candidate??  I didn't think they have, but the only thing about the US election up here is all Republican.  

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    edited August 2015
    kkitkat79 said:
    Reagan also appointed Terrel Bell as Secretary of Education with the goal of dismantling the department and national education like @aprilh218 would like.  Guess what happened?

    Bell went native and not only changed his tune about the importance of a national education program, resigned from his position due to Reagan's budget cuts to his department and dedicated the remainder of his career to improving education.  There is even a loan program in his name in his home state of Utah to encourage high school seniors to consider teaching.
    I don't think anyone argues against the importance of education. However, I don't think it is very clear what would be the best way to go about providing education. The one thing we know to be true is that the current system fails miserably and it fails those who need it the most.
    Does the current system fail those who need it the most?  Absolutely, but it does not fail miserably as a whole.  Are we behind on math and science?  Yes, but our scores have been consistently improving since 2006.  Also, the PISA, the test traditionally used to compare nations, are not controlled for poverty, and if they did American students scores rise considerably 

    If you want to improve science scores, my guess is giving states complete power to eliminate the parts their God allegedly dislikes isn't going to help that.  It's bad enough Texas has it's own textbooks that eliminate evolution and teach creationism while rewriting the civil war and civil rights movement.  What's next?

    ETF: words
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    kkitkat79 said:

    I don't think anyone argues against the importance of education. However, I don't think it is very clear what would be the best way to go about providing education. The one thing we know to be true is that the current system fails miserably and it fails those who need it the most.
    Does the current system fail those who need it the most?  Absolutely, but it does not fail miserably as a whole.  Are we behind on math and science?  Yes, but our scores have been consistently improving since 2006.  Also, the PISA, the test traditionally used to compare nations, are not controlled for poverty, and if they did American students scores rise considerably 

    If you want to improve science scores, my guess is giving states complete power to eliminate the parts their God allegedly dislikes isn't going to help that.  It's bad enough Texas has it's own textbooks that eliminate evolution teach creationism and rewrite the civil war and civil rights movement.  What's next?

    ETF: words
    I don't care about the science scores, and I don't care that the national education system is doing well if we "control" for poverty. This just shows that the current system, sponsored by the state, is doing very well helping those who don't need any help at all. 

    So yes, the system is failing miserably because it is failing where it matters the most.

     
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    kkitkat79 said:
    kkitkat79 said:

    I don't think anyone argues against the importance of education. However, I don't think it is very clear what would be the best way to go about providing education. The one thing we know to be true is that the current system fails miserably and it fails those who need it the most.
    Does the current system fail those who need it the most?  Absolutely, but it does not fail miserably as a whole.  Are we behind on math and science?  Yes, but our scores have been consistently improving since 2006.  Also, the PISA, the test traditionally used to compare nations, are not controlled for poverty, and if they did American students scores rise considerably 

    If you want to improve science scores, my guess is giving states complete power to eliminate the parts their God allegedly dislikes isn't going to help that.  It's bad enough Texas has it's own textbooks that eliminate evolution teach creationism and rewrite the civil war and civil rights movement.  What's next?

    ETF: words
    I don't care about the science scores, and I don't care that the national education system is doing well if we "control" for poverty. This just shows that the current system, sponsored by the state, is doing very well helping those who don't need any help at all. 

    So yes, the system is failing miserably because it is failing where it matters the most.

     
    How though? Can you give examples? @kimmiandkoley gives some very good examples of the good and the bad within the system. Which system would you prefer the American system follows? What do you believe needs to change. Back up your argument with examples, not hyperbole.
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    kkitkat79 said:
    kkitkat79 said:

    I don't care about the science scores, and I don't care that the national education system is doing well if we "control" for poverty. This just shows that the current system, sponsored by the state, is doing very well helping those who don't need any help at all. 

    So yes, the system is failing miserably because it is failing where it matters the most.

     
    How though? Can you give examples? @kimmiandkoley gives some very good examples of the good and the bad within the system. Which system would you prefer the American system follows? What do you believe needs to change. Back up your argument with examples, not hyperbole.
    As far as I can see there isn't anything good. 




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    How though? Can you give examples? @kimmiandkoley gives some very good examples of the good and the bad within the system. Which system would you prefer the American system follows? What do you believe needs to change. Back up your argument with examples, not hyperbole.
    I know you asked Kit Kat, but I have some ideas here too haha.  Schools in almost every single post industrial nation have poorer scores for lower income students. 
    My answer is 
    1.  Increase school funding.
    2.  Increase the food stamp program so poor kids don't come to school hungry.
    3.  Give all students access to free lunch at the schools and include breakfast.
    4.  Incentivize teachers better so we attract qualified teachers and can put trained professionals in poorer districts instead of the Teach for America employees.
    5.  Minimize standardized tests.  In some states, students take a test a month and the tests cause stress and have absolutely zero bearings on whether or not the student passes the class, grade or even gets into college.
    6.  Invest in newer technologies so students without internet access can still utilize all of the tools available to the kids who come from homes with more means. (i.e. FI "signs out" DVDs from his personal collection to students who don't have the internet and/or access to Netflix for some of the homework he assigns or if a student wants to further their study at home).

    I could go on:).
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    How though? Can you give examples? @kimmiandkoley gives some very good examples of the good and the bad within the system. Which system would you prefer the American system follows? What do you believe needs to change. Back up your argument with examples, not hyperbole.
    I know you asked Kit Kat, but I have some ideas here too haha.  Schools in almost every single post industrial nation have poorer scores for lower income students. 
    My answer is 
    1.  Increase school funding.
    2.  Increase the food stamp program so poor kids don't come to school hungry.
    3.  Give all students access to free lunch at the schools and include breakfast.
    4.  Incentivize teachers better so we attract qualified teachers and can put trained professionals in poorer districts instead of the Teach for America employees.
    5.  Minimize standardized tests.  In some states, students take a test a month and the tests cause stress and have absolutely zero bearings on whether or not the student passes the class, grade or even gets into college.
    6.  Invest in newer technologies so students without internet access can still utilize all of the tools available to the kids who come from homes with more means. (i.e. FI "signs out" DVDs from his personal collection to students who don't have the internet and/or access to Netflix for some of the homework he assigns or if a student wants to further their study at home).

    I could go on:).
    Thanks! That's what I was looking for.
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    With respect to what kind of changes should be made, my preference is towards more choice and competition. 







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    Reagan, from a Canadian, though I know nothing about toilet seats.  

    Just a quick question, why is all the press about the Republicans and nothing about the Democrats??   Have they already picked their candidate??  I didn't think they have, but the only thing about the US election up here is all Republican.  

    The dems race just isn't as exciting as the republicans right now. We only have 5 candidates and of that only 2 are contenders to their 17. Plus our guys aren't making headlines by criticizing each other, supermodels or backing Uraguays decision to deny an abortion to a 10 year who was raped by her stepfather, so they're pretty boring overall.
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    kkitkat79 said:
    With respect to what kind of changes should be made, my preference is towards more choice and competition. 







    You're advocating for more private schools? This doesn't seem to make sense.
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    @kkitkat79 You seem very knowledgeable about the political history of spending in this country.  That, to me, is weird since you were born in Russia, live in Israel and are learning English as a second language.  Just seems like a weird hobby to take up given your background.  Between your marriage thread here, your joke thread on E, and now your posts in this thread, I think there is a lot that you are making up about yourself.  Are you a catfish or a troll? 

    Not to derail the whole thread, I too want to know who voted for Trump!

    LOL, but fair enough. 

    I was born in Russia, immigrated to Israel when I was eleven, and then immigrated to Canada when I was 22 and I still live here. English is my second language, but I have completed undergrad and graduate degrees in Canada so my proficiency is high (unfortunately not high enough to know antisemitic slurs). 

    I am very interested in politics and US politics in particular. I find it absolutely fascinating.
    My knowledge on any topic is as vast as the internet. I look things up (most of the time :)).

    To address @TrixieJess question. I advocate for more choice and competition. There are a number of ways to introduce it and all have their positives and negatives. Any reform will take time, but I think investing more money into something that does not work is not the best use of limited public resources. And the current public school system does not work.

    @kimmiaandkoley, You are right that success of charter schools have been mixed. However, as I linked, most of the studies compared charter schools and traditional schools head to head. You have to take into consideration that any change takes time. Take a look at the study I linked. What do you think?


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    Reagan, from a Canadian, though I know nothing about toilet seats.  

    Just a quick question, why is all the press about the Republicans and nothing about the Democrats??   Have they already picked their candidate??  I didn't think they have, but the only thing about the US election up here is all Republican.  

    The dems race just isn't as exciting as the republicans right now. We only have 5 candidates and of that only 2 are contenders to their 17. Plus our guys aren't making headlines by criticizing each other, supermodels or backing Uraguays decision to deny an abortion to a 10 year who was raped by her stepfather, so they're pretty boring overall.


    Thanks, cos as far as I can tell from news coverage up here, it's Clinton versus Trump and about 18 other random Republicans

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    TrixieJessTrixieJess member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    edited August 2015
    kkitkat79 said:

    @kkitkat79 You seem very knowledgeable about the political history of spending in this country.  That, to me, is weird since you were born in Russia, live in Israel and are learning English as a second language.  Just seems like a weird hobby to take up given your background.  Between your marriage thread here, your joke thread on E, and now your posts in this thread, I think there is a lot that you are making up about yourself.  Are you a catfish or a troll? 

    Not to derail the whole thread, I too want to know who voted for Trump!

    LOL, but fair enough. 

    I was born in Russia, immigrated to Israel when I was eleven, and then immigrated to Canada when I was 22 and I still live here. English is my second language, but I have completed undergrad and graduate degrees in Canada so my proficiency is high (unfortunately not high enough to know antisemitic slurs). 

    I am very interested in politics and US politics in particular. I find it absolutely fascinating.
    My knowledge on any topic is as vast as the internet. I look things up (most of the time :)).

    To address @TrixieJess question. I advocate for more choice and competition. There are a number of ways to introduce it and all have their positives and negatives. Any reform will take time, but I think investing more money into something that does not work is not the best use of limited public resources. And the current public school system does not work.

    @kimmiaandkoley, You are right that success of charter schools have been mixed. However, as I linked, most of the studies compared charter schools and traditional schools head to head. You have to take into consideration that any change takes time. Take a look at the study I linked. What do you think?


    Since you love studies: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2015367-eng.htm

    Peer reviewed and everything. 

    ETA: Although the data is Canadian, it does correlate to the American system and to what kimmiandkoley is saying.
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    Reagan, from a Canadian, though I know nothing about toilet seats.  

    Just a quick question, why is all the press about the Republicans and nothing about the Democrats??   Have they already picked their candidate??  I didn't think they have, but the only thing about the US election up here is all Republican.  

    The dems race just isn't as exciting as the republicans right now. We only have 5 candidates and of that only 2 are contenders to their 17. Plus our guys aren't making headlines by criticizing each other, supermodels or backing Uraguays decision to deny an abortion to a 10 year who was raped by her stepfather, so they're pretty boring overall.


    Thanks, cos as far as I can tell from news coverage up here, it's Clinton versus Trump and about 18 other random Republicans
    LOL at all the other GOP candidates being random except Trump. 

    The media sure does love to play him up. Even many conservative radio hosts/TV hosts say they support him. I think he is a beard.

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    Here's my take on the public school system. It doesn't work for everyone. We have some excellent public schools and some woefully pathetic public schools. Poverty is an issue here, both of the students who attend the schools and the tax bases from which the funding for the schools are drawn. 

    One reason I'm Libertarian is that large government imposes these impossible one-size approaches. (Common Core? NCLB?)  Federal government can't just say, "You have to do xzy" without considering the local ramifications. And now, and again I work in higher education so I see this, federal government has been trying to regulate the hell out of higher education. You know what the real issue in higher education is? Underprepared students!! What's the biggest issue there? Poor-performing elementary and high schools. 

    So I abhor any candidate who's trying to improve higher education by making it "free" (nothing is free) because they are doing jack squat to address the root causes. I am a firm believer that solid education is needed to ensure the success of this country, and that needs to be fixed first at the local public levels before higher education should be touched. Generally speaking, I hate all the band-aid approaches to everything taken by our current governments, I hate the political games, and find the entire system rather disgusting and demoralizing. We need to focus our resources where they matter- education being the biggest and to hell with pet projects and special interests. 

    I may also add that as an Illinois resident, gun control just makes me laugh. We've had the most strict gun control laws in the country, with Chicago having the most strict laws of any part of the state, and yet Chicago has a horrifying murder rate. Guns aren't the problem. Drug war? Again, laughing. The more you outlaw something, the more criminals you have, that's all. Other countries focus on helping those with drug problems, not incarcerating them. Finally, I forget which poster said it, but the more you try to take money from those who have it and give it to those who don't, well, eventually you'll run out of people to take money from.  

    I could say a lot more on my soapbox but, well, back to work. 
    ________________________________


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    kkitkat79 said:

    LOL, but fair enough. 

    I was born in Russia, immigrated to Israel when I was eleven, and then immigrated to Canada when I was 22 and I still live here. English is my second language, but I have completed undergrad and graduate degrees in Canada so my proficiency is high (unfortunately not high enough to know antisemitic slurs). 

    I am very interested in politics and US politics in particular. I find it absolutely fascinating.
    My knowledge on any topic is as vast as the internet. I look things up (most of the time :)).

    To address @TrixieJess question. I advocate for more choice and competition. There are a number of ways to introduce it and all have their positives and negatives. Any reform will take time, but I think investing more money into something that does not work is not the best use of limited public resources. And the current public school system does not work.

    @kimmiaandkoley, You are right that success of charter schools have been mixed. However, as I linked, most of the studies compared charter schools and traditional schools head to head. You have to take into consideration that any change takes time. Take a look at the study I linked. What do you think?


    Since you love studies: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2015367-eng.htm

    Peer reviewed and everything. 

    ETA: Although the data is Canadian, it does correlate to the American system and to what kimmiandkoley is saying.
    Let me repeat myself. I think the current public system does not work because it fails to provide good outcomes to the poor. The study you linked does nothing to refute that.  

    However, great study! It strengthens my argument. Give children choices. For example, make it possible for poor children to attend schools in "rich" neighborhoods. Make this choice available as early as possible. I am sure there are creative ways to accomplish that. 
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    I think it's pretty clear that left to their own devices Alabama and Mississippi are, in at least some areas, just going to chose to straight up not educate black children. Like, literally the last time they got total control of education, that's what they did. Federal government involvement in education is the only thing that's forcing them to make the feeble attempts at education they are now. And that's just two particularly egregious examples of a nation wide problem.
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    TrixieJessTrixieJess member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    edited August 2015
    kkitkat79 said:
    kkitkat79 said:

    LOL, but fair enough. 

    I was born in Russia, immigrated to Israel when I was eleven, and then immigrated to Canada when I was 22 and I still live here. English is my second language, but I have completed undergrad and graduate degrees in Canada so my proficiency is high (unfortunately not high enough to know antisemitic slurs). 

    I am very interested in politics and US politics in particular. I find it absolutely fascinating.
    My knowledge on any topic is as vast as the internet. I look things up (most of the time :)).

    To address @TrixieJess question. I advocate for more choice and competition. There are a number of ways to introduce it and all have their positives and negatives. Any reform will take time, but I think investing more money into something that does not work is not the best use of limited public resources. And the current public school system does not work.

    @kimmiaandkoley, You are right that success of charter schools have been mixed. However, as I linked, most of the studies compared charter schools and traditional schools head to head. You have to take into consideration that any change takes time. Take a look at the study I linked. What do you think?


    Since you love studies: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2015367-eng.htm

    Peer reviewed and everything. 

    ETA: Although the data is Canadian, it does correlate to the American system and to what kimmiandkoley is saying.
    Let me repeat myself. I think the current public system does not work because it fails to provide good outcomes to the poor. The study you linked does nothing to refute that.  

    However, great study! It strengthens my argument. Give children choices. For example, make it possible for poor children to attend schools in "rich" neighborhoods. Make this choice available as early as possible. I am sure there are creative ways to accomplish that. 
    In order to do that, you would have to offer subsidised housing in those areas. It's a whole circle. Poverty is not just one thing broken, fix it and it magically disappears. You have to have mixed housing areas instead of ghettos, you have to have jobs in those areas that are accessible by walking and public transportation. You have to have a good public transportation system. You have to have child care, you have to have grocery stores, markets and places to plant food instead of food deserts. In other words, you have to make conditions optimal for everyone. Good luck with that. One of the things the study touched on was that kids who go to private school are set up to succeed because they have that expectation and support from home. Children living in poverty barely have the expectation of meals and clothes sometimes, those are things that you need to change before mucking about in the education debate. In Ontario, our Catholic schools are publically funded, yet they consistently score higher than the Public schools in standardized tests at the elementary level. It has to do with the level of involvement parents have in the school since all schools get the same funding and same calibre of teachers. However, the scores even out once they get to secondary school and it depends on where the school is. ETA: if I want my kid to go to the better school in my area even though we are out of cachement, I have two work arounds I can do, apply for French Immersion or the Waldorf program.
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    @TrixieJess, is your argument that everything is bad so let's just leave it? Or is it, everything is bad so let's pretend we're doing something that is not going to do anything just so we can say we did something?

    Never once did I suggest that poverty is a one thing, fix it and it goes away. We were specifically talking about education. I am sorry, I don't mean to take lightly any suggestions offered here, but most of what @kimmiandkoley proposed is going to do absolutely nothing. It sounds nice and gives us a sense of doing something, but I doubt it will make significant difference.

    One thing that might be helpful is increasing funding, but not to schools. I think providing funding directly to families so they can make arrangements to get their children to better schools is going to be much more effective. Maybe some kind of student accommodation program can be implemented where students that live very far would be welcome to stay with families of their classmates during school days. Or some sort of group transportation arrangement.  

    Furthermore, "rich neighborhood" is a relative term. Even access to marginally better schools that are not very far could make a difference.

    All I suggest is thinking outside the box. So far the box is not proving itself to be that great. 
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    kkitkat79 said:

    @TrixieJess, is your argument that everything is bad so let's just leave it? Or is it, everything is bad so let's pretend we're doing something that is not going to do anything just so we can say we did something?


    Never once did I suggest that poverty is a one thing, fix it and it goes away. We were specifically talking about education. I am sorry, I don't mean to take lightly any suggestions offered here, but most of what @kimmiandkoley proposed is going to do absolutely nothing. It sounds nice and gives us a sense of doing something, but I doubt it will make significant difference.

    One thing that might be helpful is increasing funding, but not to schools. I think providing funding directly to families so they can make arrangements to get their children to better schools is going to be much more effective. Maybe some kind of student accommodation program can be implemented where students that live very far would be welcome to stay with families of their classmates during school days. Or some sort of group transportation arrangement.  

    Furthermore, "rich neighborhood" is a relative term. Even access to marginally better schools that are not very far could make a difference.

    All I suggest is thinking outside the box. So far the box is not proving itself to be that great. 
    The problem is that you are proposing a "solution" in a country that you don't live in. The US is not a Socialist state. The ideas and changes you are proposing would require a Socialist framework.

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    STARMOON44STARMOON44 member
    First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited August 2015
    kkitkat79 said:

    @TrixieJess, is your argument that everything is bad so let's just leave it? Or is it, everything is bad so let's pretend we're doing something that is not going to do anything just so we can say we did something?


    Never once did I suggest that poverty is a one thing, fix it and it goes away. We were specifically talking about education. I am sorry, I don't mean to take lightly any suggestions offered here, but most of what @kimmiandkoley proposed is going to do absolutely nothing. It sounds nice and gives us a sense of doing something, but I doubt it will make significant difference.

    One thing that might be helpful is increasing funding, but not to schools. I think providing funding directly to families so they can make arrangements to get their children to better schools is going to be much more effective. Maybe some kind of student accommodation program can be implemented where students that live very far would be welcome to stay with families of their classmates during school days. Or some sort of group transportation arrangement.  

    Furthermore, "rich neighborhood" is a relative term. Even access to marginally better schools that are not very far could make a difference.

    All I suggest is thinking outside the box. So far the box is not proving itself to be that great. 



    YASSSSS GENIUS. Let's totes take poor children out of their homes with their families to live with strangers. You're living in a fantasy world.
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    @TrixieJess, is your argument that everything is bad so let's just leave it? Or is it, everything is bad so let's pretend we're doing something that is not going to do anything just so we can say we did something?

    Never once did I suggest that poverty is a one thing, fix it and it goes away. We were specifically talking about education. I am sorry, I don't mean to take lightly any suggestions offered here, but most of what @kimmiandkoley proposed is going to do absolutely nothing. It sounds nice and gives us a sense of doing something, but I doubt it will make significant difference.

    One thing that might be helpful is increasing funding, but not to schools. I think providing funding directly to families so they can make arrangements to get their children to better schools is going to be much more effective. Maybe some kind of student accommodation program can be implemented where students that live very far would be welcome to stay with families of their classmates during school days. Or some sort of group transportation arrangement.  

    Furthermore, "rich neighborhood" is a relative term. Even access to marginally better schools that are not very far could make a difference.

    All I suggest is thinking outside the box. So far the box is not proving itself to be that great. 
    YASSSSS GENIUS. Let's totes take poor children out of their homes with their families to live with strangers. You're living in a fantasy world.
    On a voluntary basis of course. I believe poor people are "totes" capable of making these kinds of decisions regardless of what you might think is best for them. Also, not the only thing I suggested. Care to point out other deficiencies. 

    Also, for someone who suggested that people with less than perfect English should not participate in discussions, you have a lot of righteous outrage.  
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    Sooooooo about that election...

    You know what's funny? We've had people on here saying they think Trump is a shill... for both sides! I had honestly never considered the idea put forth that Trump is a Clinton/Democratic party shill to split the Republican vote/make the Republican party look bad, though it makes a certain amount of sense. Myself, I always sort of felt like he was a ploy put forth by the Republican party to distract from the undesirable aspects of their "serious" candidates and make them look good by comparison. 

    There's a 95% chance that the reality is he's just an ass who enjoys attention and feeling important, but it cracks me up that it's so easy to be suspicious when it comes to politics. 
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