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Controversy Chat

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Re: Controversy Chat

  • ei34ei34 member
    First Anniversary First Comment First Answer 5 Love Its
    eileenrob said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    @holyguacamole79 and @TrixieJess, got it.   

    I would think that if the goal is to have kids in skirts then don't allow the shorts under them - that would be in adhering to dress code, etc.


    And if that’s the goal, then maybe think 50 more times about why it is the goal. Girls can learn in pants. 
    Agreed.    
    My high school’s dress code is the same uniform pants for everyone.  They even have the school name on the upper leg so students can’t wear different pants.  I actually attended the school myself when the girls wore skirts- too many teachers complained about having to take a ruler to a female studebt’s leg to make sure the skirt wasn’t more than 2” over the knee.  Girls learn just as well in pants.  
    Just curious .... are you referring to the school you attended growing up?  Or do you now work at this school?
    I attended the school that I now work at. During my junior year (2000) the incoming freshman girls uniform switched from skirts to pants, and it’s been pants ever since.
  • banana468 said:
    @holyguacamole79 and @TrixieJess, got it.   

    I would think that if the goal is to have kids in skirts then don't allow the shorts under them - that would be in adhering to dress code, etc.


    And if that’s the goal, then maybe think 50 more times about why it is the goal. Girls can learn in pants. 
    I couldn't wear the pants that my school offered, I had to wear a kilt all 5 years of high school. Unfortunately, they didn't make pants long enough for me unless I bought boys and had them tailored which would have altered them out of the uniform code. 
  • eileenrob said:
    What a story.  I don’t know whether to cry, scream, or throw up.  #thisiswhyimarch

    That poor student having to bounce up and down and use bandaids.  She’ll never forget that.  The boys she made uncomfortable couldn’t have just looked away?!  Reminds me of colleges offering “how to not get raped” seminars for incoming female students instead of “don’t rape” seminars for male students.  What’s really the problem here? 

    Im at a Catholic co-ed high school, and there’s a clear dress code in place.  It’s become more specific and less vague over the years, as needed.  Plenty my students are inappropriate.  The guys talk about getting f*ked and p*ssy and who has the best c*nt.  The girls talk about who has the best c*ck for f*cking vs. going down.  Those exact words.  Very crass.  Even with a strict uniform in place during school hours, some of the girls still post on Snapchat wearing next to nothing and some of the boys send dick pics.  The teens that want to be sexual will be.  I definitely don’t think this particular student was trying to entice anyone or be suggestive when she went braless.  Just an unfortunate example of female breasts being oversexualized.
    FWIW, the rape seminars at my college were co-ed and focused primarily on that a person who is drunk cannot give consent and that is rape.  Unfortunately, the seminars weren't mandatory.  But the Greek system groups really emphasized attendance for those who could go, and there were always good turn-outs, even with male students.
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  • eileenrob said:
    What a story.  I don’t know whether to cry, scream, or throw up.  #thisiswhyimarch

    That poor student having to bounce up and down and use bandaids.  She’ll never forget that.  The boys she made uncomfortable couldn’t have just looked away?!  Reminds me of colleges offering “how to not get raped” seminars for incoming female students instead of “don’t rape” seminars for male students.  What’s really the problem here? 

    Im at a Catholic co-ed high school, and there’s a clear dress code in place.  It’s become more specific and less vague over the years, as needed.  Plenty my students are inappropriate.  The guys talk about getting f*ked and p*ssy and who has the best c*nt.  The girls talk about who has the best c*ck for f*cking vs. going down.  Those exact words.  Very crass.  Even with a strict uniform in place during school hours, some of the girls still post on Snapchat wearing next to nothing and some of the boys send dick pics.  The teens that want to be sexual will be.  I definitely don’t think this particular student was trying to entice anyone or be suggestive when she went braless.  Just an unfortunate example of female breasts being oversexualized.
    FWIW, the rape seminars at my college were co-ed and focused primarily on that a person who is drunk cannot give consent and that is rape.  Unfortunately, the seminars weren't mandatory.  But the Greek system groups really emphasized attendance for those who could go, and there were always good turn-outs, even with male students.
    That's great, because a lot are still the "don't walk alone at night, don't leave a drink unattended, don't put yourself in bad situations". Gross. 
  • VarunaTTVarunaTT member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    edited April 2018
    6fsn said:

    A couple thoughts. Bras are expensive and good bras even more so.  What if they shamed this child and she just couldn't afford differently.  Makes me think of girls not going to school because they don't have feminine products.

    Also, we always wore shorts under my skirt.  Sometimes I didn't "sit like a lady" because I wanted to be comfortable while I was learning or bending in a lab.  Please know that I do NOT do that as a grown ass woman. 

    I thought this same thing, TBH.  The poverty levels among children in my area/state are becoming horrific IMHO.  I'd hate to think of any child going through this; if they're also going through this b/c they're poor, it makes me furious and hurt for that child.
  • VarunaTT said:
    6fsn said:

    A couple thoughts. Bras are expensive and good bras even more so.  What if they shamed this child and she just couldn't afford differently.  Makes me think of girls not going to school because they don't have feminine products.

    Also, we always wore shorts under my skirt.  Sometimes I didn't "sit like a lady" because I wanted to be comfortable while I was learning or bending in a lab.  Please know that I do NOT do that as a grown ass woman. 

    I thought this same thing, TBH.  The poverty levels among children in my area/state are becoming horrific IMHO.  I'd hate to think of any child going through this; if they're also going through this b/c they're poor, it makes me furious and hurt for that child.
    I knew girls who could barely afford the uniform (we had a program for students to buy on consignment or used) but pieces were expensive. A kilt 20+ years ago was over $100 new. I knew a couple of girls whose parents couldn't afford to buy them "fancy underwear" and they didn't want to take gym so that the other girls could see what they had on under their clothes. 
  • I just realized I'm slouched in my office chair manspreading right now. I have on pants and not a skirt but still 
  • As a graduate of 13 years of Catholic schooling... I wish more schools had strict uniforms and not just dress codes. The codes are never clear and never evenly enforced. I think (but am certainly no expert) that uniforms can help in areas with gangs if everyone is required to wear identical school colors. 

    K-8 I had a uniform (pants or skort) and 9-12 we had a dress code that was pretty much amounted to business casual with the uniform school sweater. I don't think there's any way to get away from the has-versus-has-not issue (who wears designer shoes and who doesn't, for example), but I know I had less stress over fashion by wearing the same basic ugly outfit day after day. People expressed individuality with jewelry and hair, at least. And for the love of God, do away with white polos- traumatic for adolescent girls and their new breasts, I swear. 
    ________________________________



  • FWIW, our uniform policy in the handbook is spelled out very specifically.  It actually takes up almost 3 pages.  It does include, though, specifications for how to dress for Mass, free dress days, and dances.  And, yes, it includes requirements for the boys.
    I wonder how many lines/bullet points are dedicated to them instead of the female students though.

    I'm the wife of a male high school teacher - there's a line but it's a very fine one.  I know he won't report a student ever for dress code because there's the awkward adult male noticed a teenagers inappropriate clothing thing.  Twice he's had a female colleague take care of it in the hallway after class - one time a student in his first hour had shorts that didn't cover her butt cheeks and the second time the student was wearing a sports bra and an unzipped hoodie.  Otherwise, his school isn't strict on dress code.

    However, most rules target females and are based on arbitrary rules and are biased against young women who are tall or curvy.

    That story is something else though.  I can't even put my anger into words over that!

    It all goes back to our rape culture though - let's teach women to cover instead of teaching Principals not to make young girls jump up and down in a tank top.
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  • I"m at an all-girls school, so the only comments for attire for guys is for dances.  Here's what we have:




    Re: male teachers.  We were actually talking about dress code stuff during lunch and asked the opinion of one of the male teachers.  He said he's tuned most of the stuff out regarding dress code (he's been teaching for 30+ years).  Thankfully, though, our day-to-day dress code is pretty strict and not up for much interpretation.    

     kimmiinthemitten said:

    FWIW, our uniform policy in the handbook is spelled out very specifically.  It actually takes up almost 3 pages.  It does include, though, specifications for how to dress for Mass, free dress days, and dances.  And, yes, it includes requirements for the boys.
    I wonder how many lines/bullet points are dedicated to them instead of the female students though.

    I'm the wife of a male high school teacher - there's a line but it's a very fine one.  I know he won't report a student ever for dress code because there's the awkward adult male noticed a teenagers inappropriate clothing thing.  Twice he's had a female colleague take care of it in the hallway after class - one time a student in his first hour had shorts that didn't cover her butt cheeks and the second time the student was wearing a sports bra and an unzipped hoodie.  Otherwise, his school isn't strict on dress code.

    However, most rules target females and are based on arbitrary rules and are biased against young women who are tall or curvy.

    That story is something else though.  I can't even put my anger into words over that!

    It all goes back to our rape culture though - let's teach women to cover instead of teaching Principals not to make young girls jump up and down in a tank top.

  • eileenrob said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    @holyguacamole79 and @TrixieJess, got it.   

    I would think that if the goal is to have kids in skirts then don't allow the shorts under them - that would be in adhering to dress code, etc.


    And if that’s the goal, then maybe think 50 more times about why it is the goal. Girls can learn in pants. 
    Agreed.    
    My high school’s dress code is the same uniform pants for everyone.  They even have the school name on the upper leg so students can’t wear different pants.  I actually attended the school myself when the girls wore skirts- too many teachers complained about having to take a ruler to a female studebt’s leg to make sure the skirt wasn’t more than 2” over the knee.  Girls learn just as well in pants.  
    Yep the Catholic high school my sons attended had boys and girls wear pants. They were having too much trouble with the girls rolling the skirts to high (or maybe the underwear thing - not sure since that was before we were there). They all wore the same pants with the school logo on the hips, the same polos, the same sweatshirts in the winter. Easy peasy.

    I do remember once when I was working in an public elementary school, a male teacher asked me to speak to a little girl in his 5th grade class. She was just starting to develop and was wearing a very loose tank top that was low cut at the arm holes. You could see straight across her chest to the other side (she wasn't wearing a bra or cami). That was totally inappropriate to wear to school. I told her (privately) she needed to wear something where you couldn't see her chest. 
  • I think you're totally out of line to be telling these young ladies they have to sit in a way YOU find acceptable. 

    "Manspreading" became a thing because of how men were sitting on public transportation. It's rude because they take up more space than they need to, encroaching on the space of others, taking up room unnecessarily. 

    These girls are wearing shorts under their skirts. I don't see what the issue is. You're also not their parent, so instructing them to "sit like a lady" is really not something you should be doing, IMO. Are they creating a safety hazard in the aisles? Is their sitting position causing them to not pay attention in class? Those are the situations you should be concerned about. 

    The calendar situation doesn't really make any sense. Women have breasts. I can't take mine off when I leave the house to go to work. A person hanging up a calendar is a choice. My breasts are not creating a hostile work environment by existing on my body. 
    All of this. When I went to my (all girl catholic high school) I was there to learn and be comfortable. I wasn’t trying to police my every body position and movement because I was there to fucking learn. Why does it bother you if they “manspread” as long as it’s not in anyone’s way? We were required to wear shorts under our skirts, and your reasoning that they’ll somehow magically “forget” when they’re wearing skirts outside of class is complete bullshit. When I was outside of school I was 1000% more conscious of how I looked because I didn’t have that extra layer. If seeing their shorts makes you uncomfortable that is a YOU problem, not their problem. 

    Why do people feel the need to police what women are wearing? How is it even fucking possible that things like a “pre-dance thong check” have happened? Why was a group of men asking a child to jump to see if her breasts move? There’s a lot wrong here, and none of it is with the girls and women who are just trying to go to school/work to fucking learn/do their jobs.  


    image
  • eileenrob said:
    clipped for length
    Yep the Catholic high school my sons attended had boys and girls wear pants. They were having too much trouble with the girls rolling the skirts to high (or maybe the underwear thing - not sure since that was before we were there). They all wore the same pants with the school logo on the hips, the same polos, the same sweatshirts in the winter. Easy peasy.

    I do remember once when I was working in an public elementary school, a male teacher asked me to speak to a little girl in his 5th grade class. She was just starting to develop and was wearing a very loose tank top that was low cut at the arm holes. You could see straight across her chest to the other side (she wasn't wearing a bra or cami). That was totally inappropriate to wear to school. I told her (privately) she needed to wear something where you couldn't see her chest. 
    It was my freshman year, and the rolling was the main issue. So they did away with them. Tried again junior year with the new uniform vendor and had skorts as an option, with the logo at the bottom so they could tell if you hemmed them shorter. However, the girls would cut out the shorts part (I mean, they weren't super comfortable, so there could be multiple reasons for that), and some people literally had them tailored to have the hem higher and reembroidered the logo. (Too much money.) So out they went again.

    (Yes, @ILoveBeachMusic's sons and I went to the same HS and I knew them well enough to know her - we recently realized who each other were.)

    I know people often like uniforms (as long as they can afford them) for the simplicity, and the fact that it removes one social anxiety - how to dress in the morning. However, if you're going to have a uniform, it should be very clear and it really helps if it's actually uniform for boys and girls. I agree that "good taste" is vague and useless - I've been in Catholic education long enough to get a sense of what that means, but also to know that people have varying degrees of that sense, and many kids don't have that sense at all. It's no guidance at all and highly conducive to an administrator thinking "How can he/she think that's okay?" and a student thinking "I have no idea how this is problematic." and any discipline over that difference in understanding is not going to be restorative.

    Unless they're personally buying into any underlying ideology of a "lady," mere enforcement or even suggestion that they should be "ladylike" doesn't carry much weight.
  • levioosa said:
    I think you're totally out of line to be telling these young ladies they have to sit in a way YOU find acceptable. 

    "Manspreading" became a thing because of how men were sitting on public transportation. It's rude because they take up more space than they need to, encroaching on the space of others, taking up room unnecessarily. 

    These girls are wearing shorts under their skirts. I don't see what the issue is. You're also not their parent, so instructing them to "sit like a lady" is really not something you should be doing, IMO. Are they creating a safety hazard in the aisles? Is their sitting position causing them to not pay attention in class? Those are the situations you should be concerned about. 

    The calendar situation doesn't really make any sense. Women have breasts. I can't take mine off when I leave the house to go to work. A person hanging up a calendar is a choice. My breasts are not creating a hostile work environment by existing on my body. 
    All of this. When I went to my (all girl catholic high school) I was there to learn and be comfortable. I wasn’t trying to police my every body position and movement because I was there to fucking learn. Why does it bother you if they “manspread” as long as it’s not in anyone’s way? We were required to wear shorts under our skirts, and your reasoning that they’ll somehow magically “forget” when they’re wearing skirts outside of class is complete bullshit. When I was outside of school I was 1000% more conscious of how I looked because I didn’t have that extra layer. If seeing their shorts makes you uncomfortable that is a YOU problem, not their problem. 

    Why do people feel the need to police what women are wearing? How is it even fucking possible that things like a “pre-dance thong check” have happened? Why was a group of men asking a child to jump to see if her breasts move? There’s a lot wrong here, and none of it is with the girls and women who are just trying to go to school/work to fucking learn/do their jobs.  
    When i was in HS, which was public, I sat in a similar fashion at time. Those hard chairs made my lower back hurt so bad I kept changing positions to alleviate it. We had the chairs that were fixated to the desks so I couldn't move it closer or further to get into any sort of comfortable position. If I sat up straight in the chair, the way "youre supposed to" my feet wouldnt touch the ground which was super annoying. Just for fwiw.
  • I currently teach Junior High and I'm appalled at how this girl was treated.  Being told to jump up and down and cover up with bandaids is horrific to me.

    I've also taught briefly at an all-girls program where there were required uniforms, usually with skirts.  Everyone wore shorts under their skirts so they could sit how they wanted and be comfortable while they were learning.  Especially in their option classes, such as art or shop where they might be moving more than in a regular classroom setting, this allowed them to focus on their work and not if they were flashing anyone accidentally.  Even today, I have a deskless classroom, so kids are routinely sprawled on the floor, seated in different styles of chairs or standing.  Having to worry about their clothing too would be a big distraction for some of them.  I want my students to be comfortable so they can focus on learning.  

    I often wear shorts under my dresses/skirts, depending on what I'm doing in them or where I'm going.  You never know when a wind gust will pick something up and turn you into Marilyn Monroe (happened to me before) ;D

  • eileenrob said:
    banana468 said:
    banana468 said:
    @holyguacamole79 and @TrixieJess, got it.   

    I would think that if the goal is to have kids in skirts then don't allow the shorts under them - that would be in adhering to dress code, etc.


    And if that’s the goal, then maybe think 50 more times about why it is the goal. Girls can learn in pants. 
    Agreed.    
    My high school’s dress code is the same uniform pants for everyone.  They even have the school name on the upper leg so students can’t wear different pants.  I actually attended the school myself when the girls wore skirts- too many teachers complained about having to take a ruler to a female studebt’s leg to make sure the skirt wasn’t more than 2” over the knee.  Girls learn just as well in pants.  
    Yep the Catholic high school my sons attended had boys and girls wear pants. They were having too much trouble with the girls rolling the skirts to high (or maybe the underwear thing - not sure since that was before we were there). They all wore the same pants with the school logo on the hips, the same polos, the same sweatshirts in the winter. Easy peasy.

    I do remember once when I was working in an public elementary school, a male teacher asked me to speak to a little girl in his 5th grade class. She was just starting to develop and was wearing a very loose tank top that was low cut at the arm holes. You could see straight across her chest to the other side (she wasn't wearing a bra or cami). That was totally inappropriate to wear to school. I told her (privately) she needed to wear something where you couldn't see her chest. 
    Catholic school girl here through college.  Even in the late 60's, rolling the skirt was a skill.  I was an expert at rolling my tartan plaid, pleated skirt waistband without the telltale sign of the skewed pleats at the top of the waistband.  When we knelt, the hem of the skirt had to touch the floor.
  • ellamber said:
    When i was in HS, which was public, I sat in a similar fashion at time. Those hard chairs made my lower back hurt so bad I kept changing positions to alleviate it. We had the chairs that were fixated to the desks so I couldn't move it closer or further to get into any sort of comfortable position. If I sat up straight in the chair, the way "youre supposed to" my feet wouldnt touch the ground which was super annoying. Just for fwiw.

    As an aside, this is why I find most bar stools extremely uncomfortable.  Even if they have some part of the stool portion to rest your feet on, it is still too low for me to do that.  And, within a few minutes, I'm cutting off some of the circulation to my legs.  So I always stand if I am stuck at a bar top.

    For chairs and sofas, I naturally started sitting more on the edge and away from the back, so my feet could touch the ground.  But you can't really do that when there is an attached desk in the way.  FTR, as a grown adult I still do that.  Because I'm still too short for normal sized chairs/sofas, lol.

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  • The mere fact that shorts are needed under uniform skirts makes me wonder why skirts are even an option or required anymore. In the young grades we wore jumpers with bike shorts underneath for recess play. At one point in junior high we- as well as the boys- had the option of wearing "walking shorts" instead of our culotte (not skort, hah, just remembered the proper term for those monstrosities) but it's hard to say what's uglier. I'm 35 and still never wear "walking shorts" that long, haha!  
    ________________________________


  • I'm pretty late to this party, but I have a couple of thoughts:

    1) This is adults sexualizing girls. Period. Would they make a boy with "man boobs" bounce around in front of adults to see if he jiggles and then suggest he wear different clothing? Of course not. It makes my skin crawl that any adult thought this was appropriate. Gross! Plus you could easily have the same result with an unlined bralette.

    2) Regarding manspreading and skirts...I'm kind of on the fence here. Mainly because, personally, I view school as prep for teaching kids how to act in a job/professional setting. I don't think students (boys or girls) should sit spread eagle and all slouched in their seats regardless of what they're wearing or their genitals. It creates bad habits for a professional setting. Kids should be taught how to appear professional and engaged because those are actual traits that will help them in life (if they decide to get a job) - it has nothing to do, with skirts or running shorts, or vaginas, or whatever. 

    3) Regarding dress codes in general...see #2. I basically feel the same way - of course I'm not going to make my kid wear a suit or business casual to school..that's not what I'm talking about. But I am going to make sure my kid (boy or girl) doesn't have his underwear showing, isn't wearing transparent or skin tight clothing, doesn't have his butt crack/cheeks or nipples hanging outside of his clothes, and isn't wearing midriff/cutout shirts to school. If he wants to wear those things to the beach, to the gym, or to hang out with his friends, fine. But I see school as a bridge to teaching kids about professional settings. Just me personally. 
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  • @flantastic by any chance is this school another name for a big fancy church? 
  • kvrunskvruns member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    edited April 2018
    double post
  • @charlotte989875, yeah, that part leaves much up to the discretion of the chaperones.  yay.  Last year, the student that I saw that was told to cover up had a very low cut dress.  It was quitw blatant.  

    @southernbelle0915 that’s my point (your #2).  One of my goals is to help prepare them for the “real world”.  I’m subbing another class today and a student is sitting with one leg tucked under her butt and the other leg with her knee up to her chest.  I didn’t say anything BC I don’t know her and I was proctoring a test.  
  • I'm pretty late to this party, but I have a couple of thoughts:

    1) This is adults sexualizing girls. Period. Would they make a boy with "man boobs" bounce around in front of adults to see if he jiggles and then suggest he wear different clothing? Of course not. It makes my skin crawl that any adult thought this was appropriate. Gross! Plus you could easily have the same result with an unlined bralette.

    2) Regarding manspreading and skirts...I'm kind of on the fence here. Mainly because, personally, I view school as prep for teaching kids how to act in a job/professional setting. I don't think students (boys or girls) should sit spread eagle and all slouched in their seats regardless of what they're wearing or their genitals. It creates bad habits for a professional setting. Kids should be taught how to appear professional and engaged because those are actual traits that will help them in life (if they decide to get a job) - it has nothing to do, with skirts or running shorts, or vaginas, or whatever. 

    3) Regarding dress codes in general...see #2. I basically feel the same way - of course I'm not going to make my kid wear a suit or business casual to school..that's not what I'm talking about. But I am going to make sure my kid (boy or girl) doesn't have his underwear showing, isn't wearing transparent or skin tight clothing, doesn't have his butt crack/cheeks or nipples hanging outside of his clothes, and isn't wearing midriff/cutout shirts to school. If he wants to wear those things to the beach, to the gym, or to hang out with his friends, fine. But I see school as a bridge to teaching kids about professional settings. Just me personally. 
    #1 - I totally agree and applaud!  You should see the twitter comments on her original tweet; actually I take that back.  Don't.

    #2&3- I think this is the difference between parent and teacher.  As a parent, if that is the expectation you have for your child, then by all means enforce it, communicate it to their teachers etc.  However, it shouldn't be a math teachers job to teach etiquette any more than they would teach biology.

    I agree with this.

    And sure, school does prepare kids for the "real world" but I also gotta give them the benefit of the doubt and I think most kids know the difference.

    In high school, I'd show up stoned and basically in pajamas (when I showed up at all).

    But then I'd change my clothes, put some makeup on and have sobered up by the time I'd go to my office job where I was very professional.

    I just doubt that teenagers/young adults won't know not to sit with their legs wide open if they're not dressed appropriately for it.

    But regardless, I think it's wrong and inappropriate for a high school teacher to tell her students to be "ladylike" and that they "should be uncomfortable".

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  • @charlotte989875, yeah, that part leaves much up to the discretion of the chaperones.  yay.  Last year, the student that I saw that was told to cover up had a very low cut dress.  It was quitw blatant.  

    @southernbelle0915 that’s my point (your #2).  One of my goals is to help prepare them for the “real world”.  I’m subbing another class today and a student is sitting with one leg tucked under her butt and the other leg with her knee up to her chest.  I didn’t say anything BC I don’t know her and I was proctoring a test.  
    I sit like this....all the time. Granted, not in a skirt but I don't see how it's teaching the students poor behavior or poor posture or anything that needs to be corrected. I even sit like that at my desk at work, but when I'm in a meeting with people above me I don't. Your students will catch on as they get older as far as what's professional or appropriate behavior. 
  • I agree that the term "lady like" is inappropriate & I will refrain from using that in any discussions about this.  

    I was thinking about this last night .... "distracted" isn't the best word.  I think "noticeable" is more accurate.  It's not like I have to stop my lesson and say something.  I notice it and keep going.
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