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Some thoughts...

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Re: Some thoughts...

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    monkeysipmonkeysip member
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    Most of my friends are not Catholic and do not agree with me on most things.

    Somehow, we're still friends.  I've been in big debates with them on these issues, but we respect each other, and our differing opinions do not affect our friendship.

    I am far more likely to be disrespectful on the internet.  In person, my debates are pretty respectful.  Even on facebook, most of my debates are respectful.

    But in the world wide web... people seem to get very offended very quickly when you have a different viewpoint.  And tempers spiral out of control.

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    professorscienceprofessorscience member
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    edited March 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:c447a3c8-f35c-4579-8be1-c7ba6d8f8a4c">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]After reading through all this, I wonder what each of us would do in a highly heated debate on any number of Catholic v. Secular issues. Would we raise our voices and yell back? Would we back down? Or would we calmly try to explain that though we disagree, we respect the other person(s) regardless of their opinion? I think this is something just about everybody should step back and consider. Whom do we help by being overly combative? When we lose our respect for the opinions and God-given free thought of others, we lose our status as a developed society. In all my viewing of political/ religious arguments, I've NEVER heard any party say, "I respectfully disagree." I wish more Catholics, and people in general, remembered that one of the key tenents of our faith is "judge not, lest ye be judged," and acted accordingly. The Golden Rule seems to have become nonexistant.
    Posted by lv2011[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>I find that there's absolutely no point in getting riled up over someone else's opinion.  I've been called some unkind things (nothing like your H, Riss -- that's terrifying) over the Internet for speaking my mind.  I've also seen my feed full of hateful, cruel things directed at Catholics/religious people/conservatives in general, to the point that I've considered unfriending or at least "unsubscribing" from some people I've considered my friends for years.
    However, the arguments I've let myself get pulled into have been almost always completely civil if I actually knew the person with whom I was arguing.  I try not to get dragged into a completely anonymous fight, of course, but it happens (for example, an argument I had on a Knottie's wall with a total stranger).</div><div>I mean, if I'm being flat-out insulted and my opponent isn't even trying to have a real discussion, there's no point in that.  So no, I don't think I would raise my voice and yell.  I'm not sure where it came out that someone was being combative.  I mean, these are words on a screen.  You can apply whatever tone you wish to them and could completely misinterpret what I'm saying based on the way you hear the words as you read them.</div><div>
    </div><div>And also, so many people interpret a Christian (or anyone) who speaks out against a given behavior as "judging."  We can't just hide behind our fear of being judgmental or hurting someone's feelings.  If someone is committing what I see to be a grievous act, I don't really care about their feelings anymore.  I care that they stop doing that thing.</div>
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    ChicagoRachChicagoRach member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:93c94170-5af2-4477-81af-44f806d34f64">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : If someone is committing <strong>what I see to be a grievous act</strong>, I don't really care about their feelings anymore.  I care that they stop doing that thing.
    Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

    Again, imposing your beliefs on others.
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    Riss91Riss91 member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:d151654f-e7dc-4fb1-a106-9e3c2440b026">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : Again, imposing your beliefs on others.
    Posted by ChicagoRach[/QUOTE]

    Not quite. Imposing beliefs is forcing someone to do something. Simply speaking to someone and advising them is NOT imposing beliefs. They can still continue the behavior if they please.

    If someone is going to break a law and I say "Hey, you probably shouldn't do that because x, y, z." I am NOT imposing beliefs on them. If I physically lock them up or physically prevent them from doing it, then I am imposing on them.

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    professorscienceprofessorscience member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:d151654f-e7dc-4fb1-a106-9e3c2440b026">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : Again, imposing your beliefs on others.
    Posted by ChicagoRach[/QUOTE]

    <div>Wow.</div><div>
    </div><div>So what you're saying is that I need to just shut up and keep my feelings to myself so that I don't "impose" upon someone else.</div><div>
    </div><div>Look, I'm all for hearing your thoughts on any subject we've discussed here, but so far the only two posts I've seen from you have basically been, "No, you guys aren't allowed to force your beliefs down anyone's throat."  Unproductive.</div>
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    agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    So, if someone is holding a gun to someone else's head, and I go all chuck norris on them and stop them from harming the other, than I am "imposing my beliefs" on them.

    Just because you can't see the harm done doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 
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    Eliz77Eliz77 member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:b707103e-98ef-4b1c-b03f-0ec8f813e3de">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]...my initial reaction to such a belief (that there could be a side that doesn't need to be heard,) is that is my fear of where our country is headed for those who oppose homosexuality or eventually abortion or even BC. I'm dreading the day when it becomes illegal (not if, but when,) to speak negatively - to publicly speak out against- homosexuality. That's what will happen if someone (the culture? the government?) decides that one side is so wrong that they should not be heard.  I won't say either that I agree with the holocaust deniers (I certainly don't.) But I absolutely believe that they should be able to state their facts for their line of reasoning, and let me decide. At least I should have the option to decide. Because if they can't state their facts, then what is going to stop me and my religion from being forbidden to speak out against the dangers inherent in homosexual sex or the sad statistics about homosexualt relationships? (those are just examples; the issue would be when you can't say *anything* negative about something, whether it's a fact or personal opinion or religious belief or whatever.) But anyhow, I totally agree with the distinction between making and winning an argument!
    Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]<div>Do you mind if I ask you why discussing a way of being or an act that makes sense for other people requires an argument, whether winning or just for the sake of making a point? I understand allowing someone to explain their stance or viewpoint. Obviously killing mass quantities of people due to religion was wrong. But how is that different than targeting a group of people for their sexual orientation? Yes, unsafe sex is never a good idea. That goes for same sex couples as well. I know plenty of homosexuals. I also know heterosexuals who go out partying and have random hookups. I agree that is very alarming regardless of sexual orientation. Taking the stance that unsafe sex is never a good idea is one thing. Targeting homosexuality as wrong due to the inherent risks of some seems like profiling to me. Just like I believe not all Muslims are terrorists. </div><div>
    </div><div>I personally am not a homosexual. I don't use BC. However, I respect that homosexuality is an innate affection and for some people, BC is their way of preventing unwanted pregnancies. One is not a choice, one is. But neither are illegal. Now, if I saw someone being raped or about to participate in some other illegal act, of course I'd be all vocal and against that. 
    </div><div>
    </div><div>I am Catholic, and was brought up believing many of the same teachings as you guys, but I also respect and accept that not everyone feels on lives the same way. That is definitely where I have the most difficulty, not just with the strong Catholic believers but also Catholic haters. I don't see the point in forcing my opinions/beliefs on someone who is not asking for guidance and I have been there to support and help those who may be doing something I personally would not do. But I do believe everyone is allowed to speak their opinions even if I disagree with you.</div><div>
    </div><div>To be back on topic...it does get annoying the ones who try to influence you especially when they KNOW your stance on certain issues. My mom has (had?) a "good" friend who knows my mom is a Democrat and would regularly flood her FB and email inbox with anti-Obama hate posts and links. My mom finally had enough and de-friended her. Arguing to "win" or make a point was useless because there was no way either was going to come to any common ground. And to tie that in even more to this forum: my mom met her at Church when they both had daughters being confirmed, over 20 years ago...it seems silly that the friendship is now strained due to differing of opinions in politics. </div>
    ~ES~
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    CiardasullyCiardasully member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:2abebe84-681f-43e1-9dc1-7a3561ef029c">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : Do you mind if I ask you why discussing a way of being or an act that makes sense for other people requires an argument, whether winning or just for the sake of making a point? I understand allowing someone to explain their stance or viewpoint. Obviously killing mass quantities of people due to religion was wrong. But how is that different than targeting a group of people for their sexual orientation? Yes, unsafe sex is never a good idea. That goes for same sex couples as well. I know plenty of homosexuals. I also know heterosexuals who go out partying and have random hookups. I agree that is very alarming regardless of sexual orientation. Taking the stance that unsafe sex is never a good idea is one thing. Targeting homosexuality as wrong due to the inherent risks of some seems like profiling to me. Just like I believe not all Muslims are terrorists.  I personally am not a homosexual. I don't use BC. However, I respect that homosexuality is an innate affection and for some people, BC is their way of preventing unwanted pregnancies. One is not a choice, one is. But neither are illegal. Now, if I saw someone being raped or about to participate in some other illegal act, of course I'd be all vocal and against that.  I am Catholic, and was brought up believing many of the same teachings as you guys, but I also respect and accept that not everyone feels on lives the same way. That is definitely where I have the most difficulty, not just with the strong Catholic believers but also Catholic haters.<strong> I don't see the point in forcing my opinions/beliefs on someone who is not asking for guidance and I have been there to support and help those who may be doing something I personally would not do. But I do believe everyone is allowed to speak their opinions even if I disagree with you.</strong> To be back on topic...it does get annoying the ones who try to influence you especially when they KNOW your stance on certain issues. My mom has (had?) a "good" friend who knows my mom is a Democrat and would regularly flood her FB and email inbox with anti-Obama hate posts and links. My mom finally had enough and de-friended her. Arguing to "win" or make a point was useless because there was no way either was going to come to any common ground. And to tie that in even more to this forum: my mom met her at Church when they both had daughters being confirmed, over 20 years ago...it seems silly that the friendship is now strained due to differing of opinions in politics. 
    Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

    I agree with this statement.  However it seems to be that these days when I defend my faith, I am told I am hateful.   I don't go around posting things on my FB because I am not looking for an arguement but I look at my newsfeed and I see some of the most offensive status updates directed at my faith. (Maybe I need to rethink who is on my friends list)  I have seen so much hateful things.  I try to ignore but there are days that I have to speak up. I am just so tired of the double standard.  People who are anti-Catholic can say all they want but if you are Catholic and speak up, you are the bad guy (or gal).
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    Eliz77Eliz77 member
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    ^^^I see it from both ends, there are always haters and defenders, both ways. It seems oftentime people can't just discuss their difference in opinions, it becomes an argument. Doesn't matter if it's over BC or homosexuality or abortions or Muslims or what not. There are always two sides and unfortunately because the Catholic Church has strong beliefs on certain current issues, the outspoken ones comes off as "haters" with the opposing side being "defenders." I think when you target a group of people, like homosexuality or Muslims or a culture or a race etc, it becomes a very heated topic, and does seem like a hate crime. I personally don't care who someone loves, what God(s) they worship or religious activities they partake in. If it doesn't harm others or is not illegal, by all means. Just don't force your beliefs/opinions on me, and respect we have differences, and I respect/accept theirs.

    Debating topics of acivity such as BC or abortions or legalizing marijuana or the right to own a gun or health care debates, is a bit different and I think all sides should be allowed a voice. Hope that makes sense!


    ~ES~
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    CiardasullyCiardasully member
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    edited March 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:9566aaef-dde9-41e1-bace-49d73d7eace4">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]^^^I see it from both ends, there are always haters and defenders, both ways. It seems oftentime people can't just discuss their difference in opinions, it becomes an argument. Doesn't matter if it's over BC or homosexuality or abortions or Muslims or what not. There are always two sides and unfortunately because the Catholic Church has strong beliefs on certain current issues, the outspoken ones comes off as "haters" with the opposing side being "defenders." I think when you target a group of people, like homosexuality or Muslims or a culture or a race etc, it becomes a very heated topic, and does seem like a hate crime. I personally don't care who someone loves, what God(s) they worship or religious activities they partake in. If it doesn't harm others or is not illegal, by all means. Just don't force your beliefs/opinions on me, and respect we have differences, and I respect/accept theirs. Debating topics of acivity such as BC or abortions or legalizing marijuana or the right to own a gun or health care debates, is a bit different and I think all sides should be allowed a voice. Hope that makes sense!
    Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

    It does make sense.  And I am fine with whatever religion people are and differences and all.  I guess it's a fine line and with all that is going on with the government.   I guess on all issues (not just religious), each person has a different tolerance for what they can not speak up to or unsubscribe to FB posts.
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    Karadee1Karadee1 member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:31fcec3e-bd15-495e-88aa-edd326f735be">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]So, if someone is holding a gun to someone else's head, and <strong>I go all chuck norris on them and stop them from harming the other</strong>, than I am "imposing my beliefs" on them. Just because you can't see the harm done doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    <div>I have nothing helpful or interesting to add to this discussion, but I totally LOL'ed when I read this!</div>
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    newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:d151654f-e7dc-4fb1-a106-9e3c2440b026">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : Again, imposing your beliefs on others.
    Posted by ChicagoRach[/QUOTE]

    Not quite.  From smarter people than myself...

    Fr. Dwight Longenecker also posted a <u><font color="#008000"><a href="http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2011/10/are-you-nice-christian.html" rel="nofollow">good discussion</a></font></u> of this and I think what best summarizes it was the following:

    <font color="#999999"><em>"I am not loving my neighbor therefore if I condone and bless their sinful lifestyle. Neither can I say that I love my neighbor is I communicate to him a version of the Christian gospel which is--in fact--heretical.  This sounds harsh, and I am not on a campaign to judge other individuals. However, I do wish to avoid the sentimentality and mushy subjectivism that pretends that just because a person seems nice, respectable, religious, pious and socially involved that they are 'good Christians'. Fact is, we don't know if they are or not, but we can see what they believe and how they behave and make some tentative judgements.</em> <em>And that's okay if you begin the judgment with the person in the mirror.</em> "</font>

    Mark Shea writes <font color="#008000"><u><a href="http://www.mark-shea.com/judging.html" rel="nofollow">here</a></u></font> on judging:

    <em><font color="#999999">"A case in point is the Christian virtue of forbearance, summed up in the famous text, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." For countless people in our culture, this is imagined to be the only thing ever uttered by Jesus of Nazareth and the only religious text in the world which remains out of the ruins of Western Civilization."</font></em>

    There are times that could be inappropriate to suddenly approach someone and advise someone against doing something.  There are also times that it is not best to remain silent when witnessing behavior that we know is harmful to someone.  If a friend of mine has had too much to drink and can't walk in a straight line, it is not an imposition of my beliefs to tell them so, take their keys and prevent them from drinking any more.  We are called by our baptism and confirmation to be salt and light to the world... not sugar and spice and everything nice.
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    ootmother2ootmother2 member
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    Sociologists have recently reported that people who feel compassion most often have the higher moral base.

    Just thought I would mention it
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    CiardasullyCiardasully member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:ee4e2426-90d5-4a01-98dc-81bda2faf3c4">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sociologists have recently reported that people who feel compassion most often have the higher moral base. Just thought I would mention it
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    That interesting but do you have the source?  I'd like to read that study.
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    Riss91Riss91 member
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    I've never seen anything offensive, insulting or hateful in my FB Feed towards any religion EXCEPT for Christianity/Catholicism. Not only are horrid statements made, but others "like" them, or chime in to support them. I think that is disgusting. Throw in any "minority" group in lieu of Christianity/Catholicism and you would get ripped.to.shreds. for saying anything.

    So, we have to have compassion, respect, patience for others, but they do not have to have it for us? That's how it feels to me.


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    ootmother2ootmother2 member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:87aff9b4-1479-4b6d-a8e4-3ed78043910a">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : That interesting but do you have the source?  I'd like to read that study.
    Posted by Ciardasully[/QUOTE]

    The study was done at Chapel Hill and it's available online.  I'll try to get the author's name for you
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    newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
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    edited March 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:ee4e2426-90d5-4a01-98dc-81bda2faf3c4">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sociologists have recently reported that people who feel compassion most often have the higher moral base. Just thought I would mention it
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    <div>Compassion is a good thing... kindness is a good thing... the study you mentioned speaks of it in light of being faced with social injustice.  I do find it a bit squishy that they initially refer to morality as a "feeling"... that's probably why they're sociologists and not moral theologians.  </div><div>
    </div><div>When dealing with sin, there are compassionate approaches to advising against sin... the #1 source of this compassion is God's mercy and forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation.  I don't think that it is compassionate to tell someone that a sin is no big deal... but I will try to compassionately explain how that sin is harmful to themselves, others and especially to their relationship with God.</div>
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    lalaith50lalaith50 member
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    [QUOTE] If a friend of mine has had too much to drink and can't walk in a straight line, it is not an imposition of my beliefs to tell them so, take their keys and prevent them from drinking any more.  We are called by our baptism and confirmation to be salt and light to the world... not sugar and spice and everything nice.
    Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]<div>Excellent analogy! I was trying to think of a way to respond to Eliz's question and I think  it has to do with that:</div><div>[QUOTE] Do you mind if I ask you why discussing a way of being or an act that makes sense for other people requires an argument, whether winning or just for the sake of making a point?
    Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]
    While I certainly agree that there is a time and place for everything (I don't go around telling individual gay people that they are sinning, nor would I unless I were in a trusting friendship and they were open to having such a conversation- but I'm sure they would already know my opinion by then; but I digress), in this conversation I am arguing for the *freedom* to speak out against other people's actions which I believe to be immoral or harmful. The analogy of taking car keys from a drunk friend is great, because I think that the ONLY difference between that and speaking out against homosexuality is that drunk driving is NOT an accepted cultural practice. While you may disagree, I argue that publicly accepted homosexual actions harm not only the individual person who participates in it, but <em>also</em> other people, including contributing to the general moral decay of society. If you do not agree, as I know many people don't, even many Catholics, then of course that analogy doesn't make sense. But, imagine, that since for <em>me</em> I believe the dangerous results are no different, then why shouldn't I speak out against it?</div>
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    lalaith50lalaith50 member
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    And before someone asks how/why I think homosexuality harms individuals or society, here's a link for a summary:
    (and another link that cites the studies reference: clicky )
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    Eliz77Eliz77 member
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    Thank you for your response to my question. As you guessed, I do disagree. At one point in time, there were much higher statistics for certain diseases, etc for specific races. I have an aunt who, to spite her father, had sexual relations with a black man she never intended to marry. The resultingbaby had sickle cell anemia. Does that mean ALL interracial or black babies will be sick? Knowledge is a very powerul thing. Educating homosexuals that they still need to practice safe sex or be screened for certain diseases/viruses is a fantastic way to help. But I feel to imply they are wrong for loving/being attracted to someone of the same sex, calling them sinners, isn't helpful. God created them as He did for whatever reason. 

    We do agree on one thing though: you have every right to not be comfortable or be against a group of peope if you choose. My 90 year old grandfather still speaks out against Japanese people. My next door neighbor pretty much chases off black families who attend an open house on our block. Personally, I feel it's all wrong, racist, and even hateful, but who am I to change your/their minds?

    Regardless, just to be clear, no hard feelings here-I respect your stance and this is what forums are for, voicing different opinions! I just like to also hear the reasoning behind it, so thanks!
    ~ES~
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    Eliz77Eliz77 member
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    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:e950a40b-d7b7-4554-8693-e6edeb35262b">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]I've never seen anything offensive, insulting or hateful in my FB Feed towards any religion EXCEPT for Christianity/Catholicism. Not only are horrid statements made, but others "like" them, or chime in to support them. I think that is disgusting. Throw in any "minority" group in lieu of Christianity/Catholicism and you would get ripped.to.shreds. for saying anything. So, we have to have compassion, respect, patience for others, but they do not have to have it for us? That's how it feels to me.
    Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]
    I THINK the reason for the not so warm feeling against the Church is because right now, there is a lot of movement to accept certain practices that the Church is dead against, like same sex marriages or birth control. By opposing, the Church comes off....I don't know...cold, and old-fashioned, like we're hindering forward progression of society. <div>
    </div><div>
    </div><div>I could be totally off base here, but based on what I've read/heard from anti-Catholics, that is my interpretation! I try to explain both sides to the "haters" since I understand both. I do avoid discussions where the opposing side is REALLY hateful, and luckily for me, I've never really been in a too heated discussion where it got out of control, either for or against the Church or  topic. </div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div>
    ~ES~
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    Riss91Riss91 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper First Comment
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:43a62e00-994a-4358-8b35-8072cd4133bb">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : I THINK the reason for the not so warm feeling against the Church is because right now, there is a lot of movement to accept certain practices that the Church is dead against, like same sex marriages or birth control. By opposing, the Church comes off....I don't know...cold, and old-fashioned, like we're hindering forward progression of society.  I could be totally off base here, but based on what I've read/heard from anti-Catholics, that is my interpretation! I try to explain both sides to the "haters" since I understand both. I do avoid discussions where the opposing side is REALLY hateful, and luckily for me, I've never really been in a too heated discussion where it got out of control, either for or against the Church or  topic. 
    Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately, the majority of our culture identifies the extremists with the Church and do not actually try to understand what the Church REALLY preaches. I do not know ONE Catholic that has treated any homosexual with disrespect. But, simply having a different viewpoint on marriage has become that SAME THING as "hating" homosexuals. That's not fair.

    All of the following are directed at the topics in general, not at any specific post:

    Re: BC - the Church is not hindering anyone. The Church would not prevent ANYONE from getting their own BC. The Church is asking not to participate in helping someone sin. The Church is having "society's" beliefs forced upon THEM. Let's remember that this is NOT about necessary medical treatment. The Church condones the use of pills for actual medical problems and would cover it for those purposes. Also, these pills didn't exist in society not too long ago, and somehow women survived, so the idea that this is "necessary" is simply not true. Further, there ARE things that are necessary to live (food, shelter) and NO ONE is requiring any employer to pay for these things. NO ONE is requiring employers to pay for dental and vision coverage. This mandate was made as a pretty direct attack at the Church.

    Re: Gay marriage. Though the Church sees marriage as a pact between a man, a woman and God, it DOES NOT HATE homosexuals. Homosexual acts are considered sinful, yes, because they go against the definition of marriage according to the Church. So does similar heterosexual acts before marriage. The Church simply asks that it not be forced to marry homosexual couples. And of course, if you agree with the Church, you should be free to vote accordingly WITHOUT being attacked. But there are many, many sins out there and the media doesn't hone in on those. To be quite honest, if the government got out of ALL marriages everyone would be fine. It is because the GOVT bases its guidelines on marriage that we have this problem. The GOVT should get out of the equation altogether. Why should the govt decide that you get certain tax breaks for being "married"? Why can't two "platonic" people living in a household get the same benefits as two "lovers"? Why does it matter if they are in love or not? Why is the GOVT making "love" a criteria? Clearly, the govt has no real standards for what consititutes a marriage anyway... The fight should be aimed at the govt for setting up these structures and NOT on religious groups for having their beliefs.

    I digress...

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    agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    There are some theologians out there that think if you believe that "gay marriage" can exist (not talking legally) , but that 2 people of the same sex can "marry", then you do not understand what marriage is at all, and would not be able to enter into a valid marriage yourself, because of that lack of understanding. 

    God DID NOT make disorders. God does not make people blind, deaf, with learning disabilities, or with addictive traits. Every single person is created whole, and every single person is twisted by sin, in different ways.

    Please read "Theology of the Body for beginners" and "Good news about sex and marriage" by Christopher West. 
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    ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:c69b7ab5-0562-4146-809b-f6f033e241f5">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]There are some theologians out there that think if you believe that "gay marriage" can exist (not talking legally) , but that 2 people of the same sex can "marry", then you do not understand what marriage is at all, and would not be able to enter into a valid marriage yourself, because of that lack of understanding.  God DID NOT make disorders. God does not make people blind, deaf, with learning disabilities, or with addictive traits. Every single person is created whole, and every single person is twisted by sin, in different ways. Please read "Theology of the Body for beginners" and "Good news about sex and marriage" by Christopher West. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    So you're saying that the deaf, blind and other disable people brought it on themselves? 

    That makes no sense at all is is certainly not taught by the Catholic Church.

    I'm fairly certain that you're not intellectually challenged but for a 37 year old, you have some rather childish beliefs. 
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    lalaith50lalaith50 member
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    Interesting points, Carrie. (I've never heard the first one, but I wouldn't be surprised. Do you happen to know exactly which theologians have said that?)

    Obviously, if someone doesn't believe that homosexuality is wrong, this argument won't change it for them, but saying that "it must be ok b/c God made them that way" doesn't work.

    Oot- once again, why are you so quick to accuse? Carrie said NOTHING that implied disabled people brought it on themselves. She mentioned blind/deaf/disabled as just a couple of many ways that people are BORN with imperfect bodies (or an imperfect nature- which is what homosexuality or any other addiction or any other sin is.)
    Anniversary
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    lalaith50lalaith50 member
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    edited March 2012
    oh, and Oot, I'm reporting you for saying Carrie has "childish beliefs." That is a personal attack and completely uncalled for. 

    Hint- anyone else reading, you can report that too if you want...
    Anniversary
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    agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker First Comment
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:e7876841-800c-43e7-ae09-d8c663b02aa4">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : So you're saying that the deaf, blind and other disable people brought it on themselves?  That makes no sense at all is is certainly not taught by the Catholic Church. I'm fairly certain that you're not intellectually challenged but for a 37 year old, you have some rather childish beliefs. 
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    <div>Oh for goodness sake. You know that's not what is meant, and I ONLY SAY WHAT IS CHURCH TEACHING as I always have. My "childish" beliefs as you are calling them are what the church teaches. You can keep at me oot, but I will always defend the faith. Always, with God's help. </div><div>
    </div><div>and previously , you did say I was "not altogether there". ....</div><div>
    </div>
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    ootmother2ootmother2 member
    First Anniversary 5 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:c69b7ab5-0562-4146-809b-f6f033e241f5">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]  God DID NOT make disorders. God does not make people blind, deaf, with learning disabilities, or with addictive traits. Every single person is created whole, and every single person is twisted by sin, in different ways. Please read "Theology of the Body for beginners" and "Good news about sex and marriage" by Christopher West. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    THIS ^

    God made everyone without disorders but they are "twisted by sin" and that causes disabilities?

    NOT
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    newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Comment
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:e7876841-800c-43e7-ae09-d8c663b02aa4">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : So you're saying that the deaf, blind and other disable people brought it on themselves?  That makes no sense at all is is certainly not taught by the Catholic Church. I'm fairly certain that you're not intellectually challenged but for a 37 year old, you have some rather childish beliefs. 
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    <div>Seriously, oot... can you please NOT insult agape?  That is not what she's saying at all.  Deaf, blind and disabled persons were not culpable for original sin... neither are homosexuals.  You're also trying to compare apples with oranges.  A physical or mental disability that someone is born with is not the same thing as same sex attraction.  The books that agape recommends do actually explain what I think you might be confused about in her statement.  With regards to original sin and placing the "blame" on someone or something... the following might also be helpful for clarification:  </div><div>
    </div><div><a href="http://sexualauthenticity.blogspot.com/2012/01/blame-and-responsibility.html" rel="nofollow">http://sexualauthenticity.blogspot.com/2012/01/blame-and-responsibility.html</a> </div>
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    professorscienceprofessorscience member
    First Comment First Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:1b640686-4908-4488-a2c8-d3dc7ed56066">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Some thoughts... : THIS ^ God made everyone without disorders but they are "twisted by sin" and that causes disabilities? NOT
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    Ugh.  The idea is not that God created these so-called irregularities, but that the sins of man brought them upon us as a whole.

    Really all you're doing is looking for excuses to attack her.
    Anniversary

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