Some thoughts...

Resa77

In reading posts that turn into arguments all over FB, I've seen a lot of things I don't like.  Obviously, I am deeply offended by the amount of disrespect and bitter hatred against the Church.  But one thing that has caught me off guard is how upset I've become over the way some Catholics have responded.  There seems to be as much venom in their comments!

I think it's REALLY hard to maintain a good balance between being firm on Church teachings, not waivering or watering down, while still treating EVERYONE with great dignity, respect, and love.  This is something I'm personally trying to find a balance in right now.  I think this is a very important time in which to be super balanced on this. 

What are all your thoughts?  This is seriously something I've been thinking about a lot and I could sure use some more insight into the issue!

monkeysip

I think part of it is trying to remember that it is NOT about winning arguments, but representing the faith.

Sometimes, representing the faith means we need to defend it and engage people who are criticizing it.  We may need to give them arguments in favor of the Church's position and show them evidence and logic supporting our faith. 

But eventually we have to step back and consider whether we're continuing to argue with this person to "win" the argument, or whether more words are needed to properly represent the faith.  If we've laid out all our arguments, given all of our evidence (all in a loving manner), and the other person(s) still rejects and argues back, then us continuing to argue is not going to help.  We've stated our case, and continuing to banter with them will propbably only lead to increased tempers and harsher language.

It is not in my nature to back down from an argument, but sometimes I've had to just swallow my pride and realize that I'm not helping my cause by continuing to argue over and over. 

Also, while we state our case and present our reasoning, I think it is so important to constantly consider the other side and point out the validity of their reasoning or feelings.  Obviously we may not agree with the other side on certain presumptions or principles, but we can still sympathize with their feelings and recognize that they may make some good points, while their overall line of reasoning is flawed.  When we do this, we are showing the other person that we are open to other reasonable arguments and not just rejecting their viewpoint outright.

professorscience

Well put, Monkey.

Resa, I know what you mean.  A girlfriend of mine has been filling my news feed with so much vitriol that I nearly unfriended her just to remove the unpleasantness.  It wasn't even statements that I felt I could argue with -- just pure hatred.  She finally put something up about religious freedom and not understanding how religion has anything to do with certain issues, and I was able to slip in and explain a few things.  She certainly still doesn't agree with me, but I have noticed she's toned it down.

I completely agree with Monkey that you have to know when to walk away.  I've been engaging in several arguments that other friends have commented on just to say how civil everyone is being.  But even in a civil argument, there comes a point where I realize that the other side is just not going to back down and we're refuting each other with the exact same points over and over again.

Resa77

I saw something that SO upset me recently, where a non-Catholic says "Catholics hate homosexuals" and several Catholics jump in.  Several are saying really great points about the Church's teachings, about how the Church doesn't hate anyone, and certainly not gay peoplel, etc.  They reference TOB and other great writings,  And then some Catholic jumps in saying "Homosexuality is an abominiation.  Homosexual acts are entirely disordered in their very nature, and are to be hated.  We don't hate the actual person, we just hate their unnatural, perverted actions.  Homosexual behavior is a complete degredation of human sexuality, and homosexual marriage serves to undermine the value of all marriages and of family values in general."  REALLY?!?!  Was that necessary?  Can you imagine Jesus saying that?  Because I sure can't!  The others were doing a fine job defending their faith, and this person  just jumped in and made any gay person reading it  a) feel like total crap, and/or b) hate the Catholic Church with all their heart.  (Btw, the  dialogue above is not a verbatim quote; it's a string of the kinds of things I've seen people writing on FB that have upset me a great deal)

I was appalled by the hatred I saw coming from a Catholic.  It really made me stop and think about how although she saying some things that are in line with our teachings, she was wording everything in such a hurtful and angry way, and therefore wasn't actually representing Christ's Church.  I so wanted to post something like "Let's all remember: the Lord is kind and merciful.  Let's try to be that way, too!"

I guess because I have had so many gay people in my life, I just can't tolerate that kind of hatred toward them.  I think being homosexual, especially in today's society where it's neither okay to be openly gay, nor to be a closeted homosexual, has got to be the hardest thing to deal with.

agapecarrie

Resa, While understand the paragraph you put above would probably not do any good, I don't see "hatred" towards anyone. It's all true. We should hate sin.

Resa77

Really?  If someone talked to me like that, I would feel like they hated me. 

TeaForMe

Carrie,
I agree with what you said - that what the paragraph says is correct and does not show hatred. However, I feel that so much of what the church teaches - especially regarding same sex attraction, contraception, and other "hot topics" - is completely misunderstood by non-Catholics (and many Catholics, for that matter). I think there is a certain tone to the paragraph Resa gave and, though it is absolutely correct, the way it was written (to me it came off as shaming and condescending) I think does more to hurt the mission of helping others understand the Catholic church. There is a lot to unpack in these teachings, even for Catholics who understand it. I think things almost need to be stated in a more simple and "user-friendly" way to help spread understanding of teachings. This does NOT mean lying about teaching, but just giving a basic overview rather than getting into things which would require more theology to understand.

I guess, as a preschool teacher, I think of it this way. If I was teaching a high schooler about types of clouds, I can start out using terms like precipitation, condensation, air pressure, weather patterns, etc. because they already have a basic knowledge of what this is. If I'm teaching the same thing to a preschooler, I have to be far more basic about what we learn. We're still learning the same concept, but it's just easier for someone who is lacking in a lot of basic science knowledge. Does this make any sense? You definitely do not have to agree, just my thoughts.

agapecarrie

I need to correct myself on one thing. ...one thing in there isn't true. "Homosexuality" is an abomination"... Leave that sentence out...

I'm dissecting the words of the sentence.... I don't see hatred towards a person. We should all hate sin. What was said up there is pretty much what is in the catechism and scripture.

Again, I don't think saying things like that would do any good, but I think calling it hatred isn't right either.

Jesus, Paul, and Luke were all strong in their wordings of admonitions in scripture. 

agapecarrie

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[QUOTE]Carrie, I agree with what you said - that what the paragraph says is correct and does not show hatred. However, I feel that so much of what the church teaches - especially regarding same sex attraction, contraception, and other "hot topics" - is completely misunderstood by non-Catholics (and many Catholics, for that matter). I think there is a certain tone to the paragraph Resa gave and, though it is absolutely correct, the way it was written (to me it came off as shaming and condescending) I think does more to hurt the mission of helping others understand the Catholic church. There is a lot to unpack in these teachings, even for Catholics who understand it. I think things almost need to be stated in a more simple and "user-friendly" way to help spread understanding of teachings. This does NOT mean lying about teaching, but just giving a basic overview rather than getting into things which would require more theology to understand. I guess, as a preschool teacher, I think of it this way. If I was teaching a high schooler about types of clouds, I can start out using terms like precipitation, condensation, air pressure, weather patterns, etc. because they already have a basic knowledge of what this is. If I'm teaching the same thing to a preschooler, I have to be far more basic about what we learn. We're still learning the same concept, but it's just easier for someone who is lacking in a lot of basic science knowledge. Does this make any sense? You definitely do not have to agree, just my thoughts.
Posted by TeaForMe[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I completely 100% agree with you. In fact, I said I don't think saying that would do any good.</div><div>
</div><div>But I DO NOT think its actual hatred, which is what it was categorized as, which is what I was getting at. 

</div>

Resa77

That's a good point, TeaForMe. 

 Carrie (and others) - I guess for me, if someone is being condescending, shaming, and disrespectful, I translate that as hateful.  I'm a pretty sensitive person, so maybe that's why I see it that way? I guess maybe hurtful or mean would be better words, but to me it just seems full of hate. 

I don't think the truthfulness of a statement has anything to do with the hatefulness/meanness/whatever of the statement.  I can be like "hey fat girl with acne and warts all over your face, you're ugly" and then claim it's not mean because it's true.  It's still a pretty mean thing to say.  Does that make sense?

agapecarrie

I guess I want to watch out for the "reverse judgement naming" ...

as in, we say pre-marital sex is a sin. Someone who engages in that says "You're judging me" .   

So when someone is stating truth (even in an abrasive or closed way), I think by calling that actual "hatred" could be judging their heart.

But anyway, most of my FB friends are practicing Catholics, but I have a few on there from my past theater days that are opposite on many issues. I'm not scared of teaching the truth, but I don't think FB is necessarily going to be the best outlet for that, so I don't post much divisive material on there. I'd gladly sit down over a beer with any of my friends and share my faith, but I don't think I'll do any good on FB. 

Resa77

I'm not trying to judge someone's heart.  Is it always wrong to perceive a comment as hateful unless the speaker specifically says "I hate you"? 

What if someone said something really racist?  Something about a race being naturally inferior to another; that they're subhuman.  Would you think that's hateful?  I know I would. 

I'm not trying to say you're wrong...I'm truly trying to wrap my head around this whole situation.  I seriously "argue" with myself like this in my head lol.

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:badbb3cd-9cfa-4c29-8c5a-d9ae8f8cb58a">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
[QUOTE]That's a good point, TeaForMe.   Carrie (and others) - I guess for me, if someone is being condescending, shaming, and disrespectful, I translate that as hateful.  I'm a pretty sensitive person, so maybe that's why I see it that way? I guess maybe hurtful or mean would be better words, but to me it just seems full of hate.  I don't think the truthfulness of a statement has anything to do with the hatefulness/meanness/whatever of the statement.  I can be like "hey fat girl with acne and warts all over your face, you're ugly" and then claim it's not mean because it's true.  It's still a pretty mean thing to say.  Does that make sense?
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

You're making sense to me.

The two major things that God asks of us are in the commandments.  haha, yes, I know there are ten but when Jesus was asked which were the most important, He replied "Love God with your whole heart, honor and serve him" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (written by Mark to start, I'd have to go back to get the exact verse)

If you look at the rest of the commandments, they are really only extensions of these two.

In my personal life, I don't seem to have a problem with the first but sometimes fall short on the second.

I abhor rudeness and stupidity. ( Ignorance is totally separate as we are all ignorant of something).  When someone is stupid and/or rude, my usual good manners go out the window! Yes, I do attack these two faults because they can be controlled, unlike ordinary ignorance of a situation or custom.

I feel that most of the situations within the Church recently may not have come up if the individual involved had thought about those two commandments that are most important to God.

agapecarrie

Yes, racism is hateful. But that is the substance of the sentence, not tone. 

Perhaps I'm getting hung up on a small nuanced difference between the words "hatred" and "saying something in a hateful way".  A nuance that I very well might be assigning myself, so its possible that my experience is filtering the word hatred as something that's way more serious (of the substance) rather than something in the tone (the way something is said).

When you said the sentence 

" I was appalled by the hatred I saw coming from a Catholic".... 

that to me is something way deeper and more serious than the tone someone expresses something. Which can also do a lot of damage.

This is an interesting discussion-- we're all agreed that tone, choice of words is a lot like "spoonful of sugar".... I think its possibly semantics here.

TeaForMe

Is hate in the eye of the beholder? If you feel "hated" is that all it takes, even if the intent was not hateful? Much like with sexual harassment? And intent is nearly always lost on the internet. I think secular America is so into moral relativism that pointing out anything as a sin is almost always seen as judging which then is seen as hate. I'm not agreeing or justifying, just pointing it out.

monkeysip

I think one of the problems is that Catholics (and christians in general) don't run around saying things like "____ is unnatural" "___is to be hated" "____ is a degredation" etc.  about other sins, like pre-martial sex, greed, stealing, lying, disrespecting parents, taking then Lord's name in vain, etc.

It seems like a lot of Catholics (and again, christians in general) hold homosexual acts up as the absolute worst, unforgiveable sin.  We all sin--and homosexual acts are one of many grave sins.  If we're going to say things like that about homosexual acts, then we should say them about all grave sins.

Resa77

Great point, Monkeysip!  I hadn't thought of that, but it's a really good point. 

lalaith50

[QUOTE]The two major things that God asks of us are in the commandments.  haha, yes, I know there are ten but when Jesus was asked which were the most important, He replied "Love God with your whole heart, honor and serve him" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (written by Mark to start, I'd have to go back to get the exact verse) If you look at the rest of the commandments, they are really only extensions of these two. In my personal life,<strong> I don't seem to have a problem with the first</strong> but sometimes fall short on the second.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]
Please don't delude yourself. By doing so, you put your soul in danger. I'm quite sure that the only person (well, besides Christ,) who could have accurately made that statement would have been the Blessed Virgin Mary.

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:666fc4ab-42e0-446c-8012-378608f8b116">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
[QUOTE]I think one of the problems is that Catholics (and christians in general) don't run around saying things like "____ is unnatural" "___is to be hated" "____ is a degredation" etc.  about other sins, like pre-martial sex, greed, stealing, lying, disrespecting parents, taking then Lord's name in vain, etc. It seems like a lot of Catholics (and again, christians in general) hold homosexual acts up as the absolute worst, unforgiveable sin.  We all sin--and homosexual acts are one of many grave sins.  If we're going to say things like that about homosexual acts, then we should say them about all grave sins.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

I agree, 100%.

lalaith50

I think that's b/c most of the above listed sins (with the exception of pre-marital sex,) are already considered sins (or at least not commended) by society. Most people don't go around advertising or proud of when they are greedy or they steal. 

Now, pre-marital sex is a whole nother discussion. I would put premarital sex and homosexual sex on the same level -- mortal sin. 

I'm not a theologian, but perhaps it could be argued that premarital sex is not AS disordered is homosexual sex, b/c homosexual sex can never be good, while heterosexual sex can. (within marriage.)

So, that is probably a good part of the reason why homosexual actions are the sin that seems to get such negative attention from Christians.

mica178

Taking the Lord's name in vain isn't even considered swearing any longer.  People can do it on TV and the radio in the middle of the day without censor.  Public figures can claim that natural disasters were caused by God's wrath against a specific group of people with little uproar, a far more agregious way of taking the Lor'ds name in vain, and we think of that person as being nuts but not sacrilegious.

It's one of the 10 Commandments, and yet we ignore it and focus on things that are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible but not as one of the laws sent down directly from God.

Funny and weird.  Okay, maybe not funny.

ootmother2

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[QUOTE]Please don't delude yourself. By doing so, you put your soul in danger. I'm quite sure that the only person (well, besides Christ,) who could have accurately made that statement would have been the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

I think I'm missing something here.  Maybe I should explain.

I have no problem with loving God with my whole heart and sout. (first commandment)

"love thy neighbor as thyself" is the one that I find I sometimes fall short on.  Perhaps it's a lack of patience with stupidity (not ignorance as I said).  When someone is being stupid or rude, I sometimes just lose my patience with them.
I do work on this, I am aware that it is a failing. I need to learn when to just walk awayl

I do what I can for others, charity works, helping the homeless, being kind to strangers as well as friendsand family. 

Can you explain what you said about the Virgin Mary?

monkeysip

@ Ooot

I think she was expressing doubt that you (or ANY of us) always love God with all of our hearts.  Honestly, I must agree with her.

This isn't a judgment of you, but just a theological point that I think no one is capable of loving God 100% all the time because we are sinful creatures.  While we may always go to mass, not take God's name in vain, always pray to God, etc. there are certainly moments in which God doesn't have first place in our hearts.

Like I said, this isn't about you--just theological speculation that all of us fall short at least some of the time.

monkeysip

Also, I wasn't trying to suggest that all sins are equal.

It's true that some are more grave than others.  But my point was that all sins are still rephrensible, and we should flee from all sin.  When talking about these things with others, there's no point in distinguishing between the bad sins, the really bad sins, and the really really bad sins, KWIM?  It just makes people feel like you're judging them more than others.

Maybe homosexual acts are marginally worse than pre-marital heterosexual acts, but either way, both are very grave sins and both can be forgiven as long as the person goes to confession.

ootmother2

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[QUOTE]@ Ooot I think she was expressing doubt that you (or ANY of us) always love God with all of our hearts.  Honestly, I must agree with her. This isn't a judgment of you, but just a theological point that I think no one is capable of loving God 100% all the time because we are sinful creatures.  While we may always go to mass, not take God's name in vain, always pray to God, etc. there are certainly moments in which God doesn't have first place in our hearts. Like I said, this isn't about you--just theological speculation that all of us fall short at least some of the time.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

hmm

I guess I would have to edit that to "I try with my whole heart". I do see that trying isn't always complete. I am certainly not perfect so my love can't be perfect, I see the point.

and Ihave to add that its much easier to love God than others.  I doubt I am alone on that one.

monkeysip

I was pretty sure that you didn't actually mean that you were 100% perfect in that department, lol.  That's just how your original wording came off, but I understand what you mean.  It probably is easier for most of us to worship God than to love the fellow humans around us!

newlyseliski

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[QUOTE]Also, I wasn't trying to suggest that all sins are equal. It's true that some are more grave than others.  But my point was that all sins are still rephrensible, and we should flee from all sin.  When talking about these things with others, there's no point in distinguishing between the bad sins, the really bad sins, and the really really bad sins, KWIM?  It just makes people feel like you're judging them more than others. Maybe homosexual acts are marginally worse than pre-marital heterosexual acts, but either way, both are very grave sins and both can be forgiven as long as the person goes to confession.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

<div>Late on the discussion... sorry!  The homosexuality thing is tough.  While the Church teaches that the homosexual act is a sin and that we should love the sinner... it also asks a lot of those with persistent homosexual inclinations.  For those who don't willingly choose celibacy as part of their vocation (priests, nuns, brothers, consecrated, etc)... it can be a heavy cross to bear if you don't have pastoral support and especially support from friends and family to live out that celibacy.  While the Catholic Church and Evangelicals have support groups for those who choose to fight their homosexual inclinations, I think Resa is right that this still puts them in a difficult place if the only options they see demonstrated in society is remaining "closeted" or being "out" and living out the lifestyle.  That doesn't mean that living their lives according to God's law shouldn't be asked of them... but we also owe them our prayers and support if they choose to do so... especially since it goes against the grain of what our culture tells them.</div><div>
</div><div>Two good books that I've been recommended are "Washed and Waiting" (finished) and "Sexual Authenticity" (started reading).  WaW is by an Evangelical Christian, Wesley Hill, about his struggles that persist and living out celibacy.  I have started reading SA, which is by a catholic convert, Melinda Selmys...  phenomenal so far!  Both have cleared up a lot of assumptions for me and have given me a better understanding of what the struggle is like for those who choose to not live out a homosexual lifestyle.</div>

caitriona87

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_some-thoughts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4dd73fe3-3892-43de-937a-86720026175aPost:666fc4ab-42e0-446c-8012-378608f8b116">Re: Some thoughts...</a>:
[QUOTE]I think one of the problems is that Catholics (and christians in general) don't run around saying things like "____ is unnatural" "___is to be hated" "____ is a degredation" etc.  about other sins, like pre-martial sex, greed, stealing, lying, disrespecting parents, taking then Lord's name in vain, etc. It seems like a lot of Catholics (and again, christians in general) hold homosexual acts up as the absolute worst, unforgiveable sin.  We all sin--and homosexual acts are one of many grave sins.  If we're going to say things like that about homosexual acts, then we should say them about all grave sins.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

I think part of this is because of the current political push for societal approval of homosexual acts and relationships, it has put many on the defensive....watching Christians be persecuted for upholding the truth about marriage, etc and fearing that the worst is yet to come will naturally lead people to speak more vociferously about this issue if they feel attacked.

ETA not saying this negates the need for charity, and in fact probably makes it even more necessary but I think this explains some of that perception.

monkeysip

@ newly

One of my best friends is a gay celibate catholic, and he's just my hero.  He's a better catholic than I'll ever be.

He used to be actively gay and atheist, and he broke off a relationship to join the faith.  I can't imagine how hard that would be.

Resa77

Newly, that really does explain how I feel! 

Here's something that confuses me: I know people say homosexuals should not be in a homosexual relationship, even if it's a chaste one.  People make the argument that it's wrong because they can't even marry.  But what about heterosexuals who date but dont want to marry?  Is that wrong?  I just don't see what would be so wrong about having a chaste homosexual relationship.

lalaith50

"chaste homosexual relationship." 

Isn't that called a friendship?