Wedding Etiquette Forum

Honeymoon Registry--Oh My!

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Re: Honeymoon Registry--Oh My!

  • I honestly don't think it's a big deal.

    I feel like registries are for things that you want/need, and if you value experiences over things, that's perfectly acceptable.

    I don't mean to cause offense, but I feel like a lot of the posters on here are still going by 1950s etiquette guidelines, and the times are changing.

    Honestly, is it any less tacky to register for a $500 vitamix that everyone knows you don't need, just because you can use it in the kitchen?

    At the end of the day, I really don't think anyone cares. Plus, if they don't want to fund your honeymoon/find it tasteless, they don't have to contribute, and they can but you something off of your traditional registry. Easy peasy.

    Personally I'm registering at sur la table and target because we desperately need new cooking stuff and glasses that aren't pint glasses, but If I had all of this stuff already, I'm love to have a honeyfund.

     

  • KeptInStitchesKeptInStitches the Northern Plains member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    Two things, @kefryar: 1.) a lot of people who have honeyfund/honeymoon registries don't have traditional registries in addition and 2.) it's still rude to ask for cash, which is what a honeymoon registry is.
  • Two things, @kefryar: 1.) a lot of people who have honeyfund/honeymoon registries don't have traditional registries in addition and 2.) it's still rude to ask for cash, which is what a honeymoon registry is.

    @KeptInStitches
    I was referring to the OP, she said that she did have a traditional registry as well.

    I don't have an opinion on money. I'm from the south, so it's considered tacky to ask for money/have a money dance, etc. Howverer a lot of my northern Italian friends do money dances-It's tradition. I really think it just depends on the group of people that you're dealing with.

    I honestly am not a traditional person at all, so I would never be offended if someone asked for money instead of registering, but a lot of people would.

     

  • kefryar said:
    Two things, @kefryar: 1.) a lot of people who have honeyfund/honeymoon registries don't have traditional registries in addition and 2.) it's still rude to ask for cash, which is what a honeymoon registry is.

    @KeptInStitches
    I was referring to the OP, she said that she did have a traditional registry as well.

    I don't have an opinion on money. I'm from the south, so it's considered tacky to ask for money/have a money dance, etc. Howverer a lot of my northern Italian friends do money dances-It's tradition. I really think it just depends on the group of people that you're dealing with.

    I honestly am not a traditional person at all, so I would never be offended if someone asked for money instead of registering, but a lot of people would.

    The highlighted is the point. Again, it's okay if you aren't offended by an etiquette breach, but it doesn't make the breach suddenly acceptable because of your individual feelings....especially when planning for large groups of people. The fact that others would be offended is why one would care to understand what is acceptable so that hosts aren't offending any of their guests.

    For example, cash bars are big where I live. I'm used to them, I understand why they are rude but they do not offend me or anyone in my family (unless soft drinks aren't free --if you make me pay for a diet coke, you are not my friend). However, just because my family is not offended, it does not mean that it isn't rude or that a number of my guests wouldn't be offended. In fact, some of them would be HIGHLY offended. Thus, I am hosting the alcohol that I can afford.

    Back to asking for money, I'd say that has a much higher rate of offensiveness rate than cash bars.

    Also, if someone puts ridiculous stuff on their registries, I absolutely think it is tacky. The registry was a topic of conversation at the last wedding I went to for many tables. The couple registered for 3 pieces of gym equipment and a tandem bike and some paint.  I heard about it all night. Not one gift was purchased from their registry

    We are trying to save people from having any of their guests be offended and talking about how rude the couple is on their wedding day and remembering that instead of remembering how special they felt to be included in the event..

    We aren't quoting from the 50s at all. If we went with that, reply cards would be rude as guests were supposed to write a letter accepting/declining with their personal stationary.


    imageimageimage

    You'll never be subject to a cash bar, gap, potluck wedding, or b-list if you marry a Muppet Overlord.
    southernbelle0915
  • kefryar said:
    Two things, @kefryar: 1.) a lot of people who have honeyfund/honeymoon registries don't have traditional registries in addition and 2.) it's still rude to ask for cash, which is what a honeymoon registry is.

    @KeptInStitches
    I was referring to the OP, she said that she did have a traditional registry as well.

    I don't have an opinion on money. I'm from the south, so it's considered tacky to ask for money/have a money dance, etc. Howverer a lot of my northern Italian friends do money dances-It's tradition. I really think it just depends on the group of people that you're dealing with.

    I honestly am not a traditional person at all, so I would never be offended if someone asked for money instead of registering, but a lot of people would.

    The highlighted is the point. Again, it's okay if you aren't offended by an etiquette breach, but it doesn't make the breach suddenly acceptable because of your individual feelings....especially when planning for large groups of people. The fact that others would be offended is why one would care to understand what is acceptable so that hosts aren't offending any of their guests.

    For example, cash bars are big where I live. I'm used to them, I understand why they are rude but they do not offend me or anyone in my family (unless soft drinks aren't free --if you make me pay for a diet coke, you are not my friend). However, just because my family is not offended, it does not mean that it isn't rude or that a number of my guests wouldn't be offended. In fact, some of them would be HIGHLY offended. Thus, I am hosting the alcohol that I can afford.

    Back to asking for money, I'd say that has a much higher rate of offensiveness rate than cash bars.

    Also, if someone puts ridiculous stuff on their registries, I absolutely think it is tacky. The registry was a topic of conversation at the last wedding I went to for many tables. The couple registered for 3 pieces of gym equipment and a tandem bike and some paint.  I heard about it all night. Not one gift was purchased from their registry

    We are trying to save people from having any of their guests be offended and talking about how rude the couple is on their wedding day and remembering that instead of remembering how special they felt to be included in the event..

    We aren't quoting from the 50s at all. If we went with that, reply cards would be rude as guests were supposed to write a letter accepting/declining with their personal stationary.


    @MuppetOverlord

    1. The point I was trying to make is that OP knows HER guests and knows if they would be offended by this or not. I understand that just because I'm not offended doesn't mean that this changes anything. However, if she is inviting a group of people to her wedding who would NOT think this was rude, then she should do it.

    It's all subjective.

    2. Is it not just as rude (maybe more so) for people to be gossiping about a couple AT THEIR WEDDING? IMO, people need to keep their mouths shut, otherwise that just makes them a hypocrite.

    Everyone should remember this rule, always;

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

     

    I think that the most tasteless thing someone can do is speak badly of someone while they are at a party, being fed, given alcohol, and sharing  a very important and special moment with a couple, regardless of the 80in HD tv that the couple registered for. 

    BTW, my friends registered at REI for camping/hiking equipment, and everything they asked for had been bought months before their wedding.  


     

  • kefryar said:
    kefryar said:
    Two things, @kefryar: 1.) a lot of people who have honeyfund/honeymoon registries don't have traditional registries in addition and 2.) it's still rude to ask for cash, which is what a honeymoon registry is.

    @KeptInStitches
    I was referring to the OP, she said that she did have a traditional registry as well.

    I don't have an opinion on money. I'm from the south, so it's considered tacky to ask for money/have a money dance, etc. Howverer a lot of my northern Italian friends do money dances-It's tradition. I really think it just depends on the group of people that you're dealing with.

    I honestly am not a traditional person at all, so I would never be offended if someone asked for money instead of registering, but a lot of people would.

    The highlighted is the point. Again, it's okay if you aren't offended by an etiquette breach, but it doesn't make the breach suddenly acceptable because of your individual feelings....especially when planning for large groups of people. The fact that others would be offended is why one would care to understand what is acceptable so that hosts aren't offending any of their guests.

    For example, cash bars are big where I live. I'm used to them, I understand why they are rude but they do not offend me or anyone in my family (unless soft drinks aren't free --if you make me pay for a diet coke, you are not my friend). However, just because my family is not offended, it does not mean that it isn't rude or that a number of my guests wouldn't be offended. In fact, some of them would be HIGHLY offended. Thus, I am hosting the alcohol that I can afford.

    Back to asking for money, I'd say that has a much higher rate of offensiveness rate than cash bars.

    Also, if someone puts ridiculous stuff on their registries, I absolutely think it is tacky. The registry was a topic of conversation at the last wedding I went to for many tables. The couple registered for 3 pieces of gym equipment and a tandem bike and some paint.  I heard about it all night. Not one gift was purchased from their registry

    We are trying to save people from having any of their guests be offended and talking about how rude the couple is on their wedding day and remembering that instead of remembering how special they felt to be included in the event..

    We aren't quoting from the 50s at all. If we went with that, reply cards would be rude as guests were supposed to write a letter accepting/declining with their personal stationary.


    @MuppetOverlord

    1. The point I was trying to make is that OP knows HER guests and knows if they would be offended by this or not. She cannot possibly know this. My friends probably think I prefer a cash bar - I definitely do not. Even if they ask every single guest individually (I never believe it when people say they do this), people may not want to rain on your wedding day parade by saying "sorry, but your plan is rude and I'm offended." They're much more likely to say, "whatever you want." Internet strangers do not have a problem with the former. I understand that just because I'm not offended doesn't mean that this changes anything. However, if she is inviting a group of people to her wedding who would NOT think this was rude, then she should do it.

    It's all subjective. Not really, proper hosting is proper hosting. Asking your guests to subsidize your party in any form is not proper hosting. This is responsibility of the HOST.

    2. Is it not just as rude (maybe more so) for people to be gossiping about a couple AT THEIR WEDDING? IMO, people need to keep their mouths shut, otherwise that just makes them a hypocrite. I completely agree with you here - it is rude to gossip. Absolutely. Being a gracious guest is the responsibility of the GUEST.

    Everyone should remember this rule, always;

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt You rock - this is one of my favorite quotes of all time!

    I think that the most tasteless thing someone can do is speak badly of someone while they are at a party, being fed, given alcohol (not if it's a cash bar), and sharing  a very important and special moment with a couple, regardless of the 80in HD tv that the couple registered for. 

    BTW, my friends registered at REI for camping/hiking equipment, and everything they asked for had been bought months before their wedding.  


    *********************************************************************************

    image
  • kefryar said:
    kefryar said:
    Two things, @kefryar: 1.) a lot of people who have honeyfund/honeymoon registries don't have traditional registries in addition and 2.) it's still rude to ask for cash, which is what a honeymoon registry is.

    @KeptInStitches
    I was referring to the OP, she said that she did have a traditional registry as well.

    I don't have an opinion on money. I'm from the south, so it's considered tacky to ask for money/have a money dance, etc. Howverer a lot of my northern Italian friends do money dances-It's tradition. I really think it just depends on the group of people that you're dealing with.

    I honestly am not a traditional person at all, so I would never be offended if someone asked for money instead of registering, but a lot of people would.

    The highlighted is the point. Again, it's okay if you aren't offended by an etiquette breach, but it doesn't make the breach suddenly acceptable because of your individual feelings....especially when planning for large groups of people. The fact that others would be offended is why one would care to understand what is acceptable so that hosts aren't offending any of their guests.

    For example, cash bars are big where I live. I'm used to them, I understand why they are rude but they do not offend me or anyone in my family (unless soft drinks aren't free --if you make me pay for a diet coke, you are not my friend). However, just because my family is not offended, it does not mean that it isn't rude or that a number of my guests wouldn't be offended. In fact, some of them would be HIGHLY offended. Thus, I am hosting the alcohol that I can afford.

    Back to asking for money, I'd say that has a much higher rate of offensiveness rate than cash bars.

    Also, if someone puts ridiculous stuff on their registries, I absolutely think it is tacky. The registry was a topic of conversation at the last wedding I went to for many tables. The couple registered for 3 pieces of gym equipment and a tandem bike and some paint.  I heard about it all night. Not one gift was purchased from their registry

    We are trying to save people from having any of their guests be offended and talking about how rude the couple is on their wedding day and remembering that instead of remembering how special they felt to be included in the event..

    We aren't quoting from the 50s at all. If we went with that, reply cards would be rude as guests were supposed to write a letter accepting/declining with their personal stationary.


    @MuppetOverlord

    1. The point I was trying to make is that OP knows HER guests and knows if they would be offended by this or not. She cannot possibly know this. My friends probably think I prefer a cash bar - I definitely do not. Even if they ask every single guest individually (I never believe it when people say they do this), people may not want to rain on your wedding day parade by saying "sorry, but your plan is rude and I'm offended." They're much more likely to say, "whatever you want." Internet strangers do not have a problem with the former. I understand that just because I'm not offended doesn't mean that this changes anything. However, if she is inviting a group of people to her wedding who would NOT think this was rude, then she should do it.

    It's all subjective. Not really, proper hosting is proper hosting. Asking your guests to subsidize your party in any form is not proper hosting. This is responsibility of the HOST.

    2. Is it not just as rude (maybe more so) for people to be gossiping about a couple AT THEIR WEDDING? IMO, people need to keep their mouths shut, otherwise that just makes them a hypocrite. I completely agree with you here - it is rude to gossip. Absolutely. Being a gracious guest is the responsibility of the GUEST.

    Everyone should remember this rule, always;

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt You rock - this is one of my favorite quotes of all time!

    I think that the most tasteless thing someone can do is speak badly of someone while they are at a party, being fed, given alcohol (not if it's a cash bar), and sharing  a very important and special moment with a couple, regardless of the 80in HD tv that the couple registered for. 

    BTW, my friends registered at REI for camping/hiking equipment, and everything they asked for had been bought months before their wedding.  



    southernbelle0915

    true on the cash bar thing, that never even crossed my mind, because I would never think of doing that.

    But this is all a moot point because it appears that someone (her mother) does have a major problem with this and no, If someone already has a problem with this, it's best not to go this route.

     

  • edited August 2013
    Sure, it's rude to gossip about the bride and groom at their wedding. However, it's natural for people to interact on an etiquette violation that affects them mutually, especially when you know the people you are interacting with very well. Also, real-time etiquette blunders often spark conversation about the blunders leading up to the event.

    For the last wedding I went to, most people didn't show up to the wedding because they were sick of the couple and all their violations leading up to the event...including a lot of them asking for money.

    If people aren't rude to their guests, it won't be on their minds during their event. 

    And the last wedding I went to --I was in no way grateful for being allowed to share in their moment when it was demanded of the guests to supply the food and pay for their drinks and the wedding party was expected to pay for everything else related to the wedding right up to the flatware.

    Edited: If they didn't do 100 horribly rude things,  I would've still made a comment about their registry,  I just would've been in better humor about it.
    imageimageimage

    You'll never be subject to a cash bar, gap, potluck wedding, or b-list if you marry a Muppet Overlord.
  • I simply want to say that it is truly impossible for anyone to know how all of their guests will react to something like a honeymoon registry, a cash bar, a dollar dance (I never even heard of that before TK), etc.

    For example, a couple years ago, before DH and I were engaged but when we had already been together for several years, we were invited to one of his friends' wedding. DH was a groomsman, I was invited (by name) as his date for both the RD and the wedding. I knew the couple, but I would not have been invited if it were't for DH's presence in the bridal party. I received an invitation to the bride's bridal shower - included on it was information about their honeymoon fund. They had planned a trip to Europe that included multiple stops (4 different cities, I believe). The fund was to help pay for this trip. 

    I found this to be so rude that I declined attending the shower. Why? Because a) I've been to Europe multiple times - and I have saved like crazy each and every one of them in order to be able to afford it - I did not ask others to pay my way for me, but stayed in hostals and ate at places that I could afford; b) I was invited to the wedding as DH's date - why on earth would I be invited to a shower to give the bride more gifts?

    Now, when I brought this up with DH, he didn't bat an eye at the honeymoon registry. He thought it sounded like a cool idea, in fact. So yes, maybe the bride and groom knew how their friend would react to a honeymoon registry, but not his girlfriend (who was the one invited to attend an event with that information printed on the invitation).

    This is just one example, I know, but it shows that I obviously didn't react positively to this concept - to the point where I didn't attend the shower or send a gift of any kind.

    I have another friend who is getting married this fall, and I am a BM. She mentioned that they were doing a honeyfund. I asked if she knew that they would only be getting part of the money that would be given on that site - my attempt to dissuade her subtly. She said that she did but she thought her guests would find it to be more convenient to them than they would writing a check. (Huh?). They registered for cash donations to their mini-moon (a short trip immediately after the wedding) and a true honeymoon (to take place next summer). Needless to say, I will not be buying in to that concept. Last time I looked at their website, no one else has either (though multiple things have been purchased off her physical gift registry).
    image
    KeptInStitchessouthernbelle0915MGP
  • I'm going to end this all by saying, WHO CARES what people find offensive. If your wedding ruins your relationship with your family, there are more issues there.

    My guests wouldn't be self absorbed enough to talk about how tacky my wedding was during my wedding, and yes, I DO know this. I guess I was just born with the superpower of actually knowing my close friends and family, WHOA.

     

  • kefryarkefryar member
    100 Comments 25 Love Its First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited August 2013

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

     

     

  • APDSS22APDSS22 O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A is OK member
    Fifth Anniversary 1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    kefryar said:

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

     

    Since you can't read my mind, I'll tell you:  I don't care.  If that's what a bride wants, it doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever.  Lots of my friends have tattoos and they look great no matter what they wear because they're awesome like that.

  • kefryar said:

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

     

    There's a big difference between showing your skin and being rude to your guests.


    KeptInStitchessimplykaylaSKPM
  • APDSS22APDSS22 O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A is OK member
    Fifth Anniversary 1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    banana468 said:

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

     

    There's a big difference between showing your skin and being rude to your guests.
    Unless you're mooning them...then it's the same thing.

    KeptInStitchessimplykaylaRebeccaB88[Deleted User]
  • kefryar said:

    I'm going to end this all by saying, WHO CARES what people find offensive. If your wedding ruins your relationship with your family, there are more issues there.

    My guests wouldn't be self absorbed enough to talk about how tacky my wedding was during my wedding, and yes, I DO know this. I guess I was just born with the superpower of actually knowing my close friends and family, WHOA.

    kefryar said:

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

    This is an etiquette board. People are here because they DO care what others find offensive and they want to avoid breaching etiquette. If someone asks a question and there is an etiquette faux pas, people will let them know and they'll let them know why. 

    I can't really speak for everyone but I highly doubt anyone here really cares if you have tattoos. In fact most of the ladies here seriously tsk-tsk'd a girl on another board for asking her sister to cover up her tattoos and told her it was bad etiquette to ask her sister to do that. So etiquette isn't about "prissiness" or anything like that. It's about the proper hosting and making your guests comfortable. If someone cares that you have tattoos - THAT's judgy and rude.
    *********************************************************************************

    image
    KeptInStitches
  • I'm a BM in a wedding where the bride has a honeymoon registry.  I think it's incredibly rude, but I would never say that to her.  I tried to dissuade her by bringing up the fee thing, but to no avail.

    The point is, like PPs have said, your friends and extended family are highly unlikely to tell you they find something you do at your wedding to be rude or offensive.  But they will still think you were rude or offensive.
  • kefryar said:

    I'm going to end this all by saying, WHO CARES what people find offensive. If your wedding ruins your relationship with your family, there are more issues there.

    My guests wouldn't be self absorbed enough to talk about how tacky my wedding was during my wedding, and yes, I DO know this. I guess I was just born with the superpower of actually knowing my close friends and family, WHOA.

    So, if one of your friends was incredibly rude to you during the planning process of their wedding, you wouldn't care and it wouldn't affect your friendship?  You don't care how the people in your life treat you and they don't care how you treat them? 
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
    KeptInStitchesAPDSS22Liatris2010
  • kefryar said:

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

     

    Umm... you're kidding, right? One of my good friends (who happens to be the same one who currently has a honeymoon registry set up for her fall wedding) has several tattoos. Not only did she find a gown that does not cover them up for her own wedding (which I completely supported) but I also encouraged her to find one that leaves them uncovered to wear as her BM dress for my wedding, if that was something she wanted to do. I think they are beautiful, they are a representation of her, and I would never side-eye her for showing them off. However, I still side-eye for the honeymoon registry - but I will never say so to her face, because that would be rude of me.
    image
    APDSS22KeptInStitchessimplykayla
  • WinstonsGirlWinstonsGirl The Cold North member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    kefryar said:

    PS: There is always someone who will find something offensive about your wedding. I can't even imagine what you classy ladies would say about me having visible tattoos in a wedding dress, *GASP*

     

    What do tattoos have to do with rude etiquette??  

    simplykayla
  • YES, it is generational. A lot of the things couples are doing now are strange to our parents and grandparents, especially anything that has to do with the internet or actually being DIRECT with people about the wedding.  Do you actually need a gravy boat? No, no you do not. And lots of people will understand that. But some people are going to want to do the traditional thing and get you that crystal vase you're never going to use, and that's fine, too. Have your traditional registry for them, and have your Honeymoon fund for you. And if someone thinks it is rude or unseemly to be honest about the fact that you value experiences over items, they can simply not participate. This is your wedding, and it is you and your fiancé who can make these decisions, not your parents. :)
  • KeptInStitchesKeptInStitches the Northern Plains member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary 5 Answers
    Itsthevix said:
    YES, it is generational. A lot of the things couples are doing now are strange to our parents and grandparents, especially anything that has to do with the internet or actually being DIRECT with people about the wedding.  Do you actually need a gravy boat? No, no you do not. And lots of people will understand that. But some people are going to want to do the traditional thing and get you that crystal vase you're never going to use, and that's fine, too. Have your traditional registry for them, and have your Honeymoon fund for you. And if someone thinks it is rude or unseemly to be honest about the fact that you value experiences over items, they can simply not participate. This is your wedding, and it is you and your fiancé who can make these decisions, not your parents. :)
    Yeah, they won't participate and they will talk about how tacky you are for having a money-grubbing registry behind your back for all time.
  • ItsthevixItsthevix member
    10 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited September 2013
    So? Seriously. So what? Let them talk! They're going to find something to complain about, if they're those kinds of people, anyway.  She may as well be chilling at the spa while they do.  :)
  • APDSS22APDSS22 O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A is OK member
    Fifth Anniversary 1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited September 2013
    You're right!  Who needs friends and family?  People who think well of you and love you certainly don't need to be in your life because the only thing that matters is that you (general bridal you) have YOUR day with the things YOU want!!! *heavy sarcasm font*

    ETA: Why is it so hard to be considerate of your guests?

    KeptInStitchessimplykayla[Deleted User]
  • Sorry, we're just not going to agree on this, and that's completely fine. If she wants to register at the tattoo parlor, so what??? A wedding is supposed to reflect THE COUPLE and their personalities. And the people that love you are supposed to love you, period. If their approval is that fragile, a wedding gift is the least of your worries.

  • Itsthevix said:

    Sorry, we're just not going to agree on this, and that's completely fine. If she wants to register at the tattoo parlor, so what??? A wedding is supposed to reflect THE COUPLE and their personalities. And the people that love you are supposed to love you, period. If their approval is that fragile, a wedding gift is the least of your worries.

    That's terrible logic. Loving someone doesn't mean supporting everything they do.

    You are confusing loving with enabling.

    southernbelle0915APDSS22[Deleted User]
  • ItsthevixItsthevix member
    10 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited September 2013

    People ask opinions and I offered mine. They - like you - are free to ignore me. If that bothers you, that's unfortunate, but not my concern. But the rudeness I've experienced here shows me that etiquette and good manners are VERY much in the eyes of the beholder.

    It is always funny how rude people are from the safety of a keyboard. Especially the ones who like to tell others the "proper" way to behave.

    AroundTheBlock
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