In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:823502a7-0c20-4d4c-bfc3-1ffa59c605db">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I think this was responding to me? Even though this might seem like splitting hairs, its very important to use language correctly when talking about this... Using ABC does not preserve anyone's life. That's impossible. (In fact, the pill and other hormonal bc cuases more harm than any good). Using ABC might, depending on method, prevent ovulation, or keep sperm away from egg (condoms), OR in all hormonal bc methods, could possibly abort a child. <strong>It could be that the stress on the body from a pregnancy might cause a body damage that could be fatal. There is the difference.</strong> So one might have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, but the means to doing so are vastly different between ABC and NFP. The ends are the same: not having children. The means are different. Kind of like someone either earning money or robbing a bank. Same ends: obtain money. Different means to get there: one is moral, the other isn't. About "judging"...we are definitely called to judge actions. Truth is not relative to what we want to be, it doesn't change. We cannot judge people's hearts. I understand different faiths have come to different conclusions about ABC, but most people in those faiths haven't done one lick of research about how that came to be. Did you know that ALL protestant faiths were against any kind of contraception until 1930s? Then they changed. I'd recommend reading up on why the church teaches what she does, as been recommended before, Christopher West books are a great start. I didn't say anything about infertiity. I was talking about purpuseful sterility (such as hormonal birth control, vasectomy, condoms--as in sterilizing the act). When a couple is infertile by no means of their own actions, they are not willfully holding anything back from their spouse. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
@Agape - Yes - I was "speaking" to you. I do understand in the very general sense; which is why I am engaged in the dicussion to learn the specifics.
Per the bolded part, I was hoping to keep this general and not personal; however, I had a uterin (sp?) condition (heredity) that required a procedure that makes pregnancy life-threatening for me. It is not due to stress that could cause fatal damage. It is a real and scary threat to my health/life. I know myself and that I would not be diligent to use NFP, so yes...I use ABC.
If it should fail (the ABC), we will cross that bridge when we come to it; but neither I nor my FI are willing to risk my life.
I understand that goes against your beliefs and the Church's teachings; we are comfortable with our decision.
ETA: I don't agree that we are called to judge. Only God can judge me. He will determine when I stand before him whether I am worthy or not. No one has the right to judge anyone else's choices. The Bible does not say AgapeCarrie (strictly as an example, I don't think you believe this and if we do there aer bigger issues <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />) will judge me at my death, but that God will.
I wasn't talking about emotional stress, I was talking physical stress ( in a generic sense of any kind) that pregnancy could cause on the body, or any kind of physical situation that would make pregnancy harmful to someone.
How do you know you wouldn't be diligent with NFP? I started charting when I was single for my health..,because I had health issues...and discovered some more by charting...it has been remarkable for my health and is extremely easy.
Hormonal Birth control is extremely risky not only to health but in its effectiveness in preventing conception. NFP effectiveness rate is way better than any other method. By using ABC you are actually taking more risk in getting pregnant, and therefore your life, by trusting abc.
I know of several people who cannot get pregnant again because it would be life threatening. They are using NFP to avoid pregnancy and doing very well.
I'd again recommend the books listed in this thread as well.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:618879da-d7eb-4385-8fc6-2a1b3d31a21d">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]I wasn't talking about emotional stress, I was talking physical stress ( in a generic sense of any kind) that pregnancy could cause on the body, or any kind of physical situation that would make pregnancy harmful to someone. How do you know you wouldn't be diligent with NFP? I started charting when I was single for my health..,because I had health issues...and discovered some more by charting...it has been remarkable for my health and is extremely easy. Hormonal Birth control is extremely risky not only to health but in its effectiveness in preventing conception. NFP effectiveness rate is way better than any other method. By using ABC you are actually taking more risk in getting pregnant, and therefore your life, by trusting abc. I know of several people who cannot get pregnant again because it would be life threatening. They are using NFP to avoid pregnancy and doing very well. I'd again recommend the books listed in this thread as well. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
I can appreciate that; however I disagree that there is more risk of pregnancy on hormonal birth control. But that is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. I would also like to throw out there that at my age (I am pushing 40) pregnancy is also that much riskier. I have many reasons why I choose not to go with NFP and I know wouldn't be diligent, I am not good with schedule & routine. We all know our own strengths & weaknesses.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:5c37ccbd-321e-4113-8137-8aac4f840bf7">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE] ETA: I don't agree that we are called to judge. Only God can judge me. He will determine when I stand before him whether I am worthy or not. No one has the right to judge anyone else's choices. The Bible does not say AgapeCarrie (strictly as an example, I don't think you believe this and if we do there aer bigger issues ) will judge me at my death, but that God will. Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
There is a differnce between judging <em>actions </em>and judging <em>people/their soul</em>. By judging actions, we are saying "that is/is NOT God's will". So, you are correct that only God can judge me and my soul. But we are called to judge <em>actions</em> for the purpose of HELPING the person from harming their soul. So, it comes from a good place, even if it is "tough love".
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:0118666a-58e9-4515-a99b-f59ab25e8818">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I can appreciate that; however I disagree that there is more risk of pregnancy on hormonal birth control. But that is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. I would also like to throw out there that at my age (I am pushing 40) pregnancy is also that much riskier. I have many reasons why I choose not to go with NFP and I know wouldn't be diligent, I am not good with schedule & routine. We all know our own strengths & weaknesses. Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
<div>I have in no way quesitoned your reasoning for needing to avoid pregnancy ( in fact your first example of getting personal wasn't necessary to discuss it either--I'm not saying it was inappropriate, I'm just saying) You don't need to keep explaining yourself. </div><div> </div><div>I'm talking about the MEANS in which you are doing so. Just because you ahve lots of reasons to avoid does not make ABC any better or more reasonable. All the while, you are actually causing way more harm to your body, and being riskier. I have the science behind my argument (morality aside). I can get you a list of docs who can explain in very detailed ways how harmful it is and how risky it is. Effectiveness rates are not opinion based...</div><div> </div><div>I'm not routine oriented either. I have crazy sleep schedules and a gig based job. The empowerment of knowing what is up with my body is WAY worth the few seconds a day it takes to observe and chart. There really is no routine or schedule. </div><div>Why not even try it out before blowing it off so easily.</div>
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:8ff279ca-7ce7-4d24-a1fe-340c0a5147bc">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : There is a differnce between judging actions and judging people/their soul . By judging actions, we are saying "that is/is NOT God's will". So, you are correct that only God can judge me and my soul. But we are called to judge actions for the purpose of HELPING the person from harming their soul. So, it comes from a good place, even if it is "tough love". Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. However, "tough love" or not; I think it inappropriate for anyone to judge someone who does not share the same belief system. We all believe that our religion, be it one of the many Christian sects (Cathlic, Baptist, Methodist etc), Judaism, Islam, is the "right" one; but I would not judge any person for beliefs they do not share with me.
FTR - I have not felt judged (here at least), this has been an enlightening & interesting discussion for me; and I come into this (and all others) with full knowledge this will be "all Catholic, all the time" with folks are fiercely strong in their fatih.
BTW, it is ALL over scripture that we are to judge actions. NOT people or their hearts.
Actions can be objectively moral or immoral.
Murder is wrong. That is judging an action. If I told a murderer that murder is wrong, I am not judging them, I am judging the action. If I told a murderer they were going to hell, or made that decision internally, that would be judging the person.
We have to remember, God is only offended by us doing things that are harmful to ourselves. When we believe something is immoral, wrong, or a sin, it is not an arbitrary rule. It is because the action causes us spiritual and/or physical harm. We may not see it or understand it, or even know that we are experiencing the consequences, but they are there.
Just because someone doens't believe BC is wrong, doesn't mean it isn't effecting them in very serious ways.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:4377c6b9-f1e6-4afe-afd9-cd5ac8926280">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I have in no way quesitoned your reasoning for needing to avoid pregnancy ( in fact your first example of getting personal wasn't necessary to discuss it either--I'm not saying it was inappropriate, I'm just saying) You don't need to keep explaining yourself. I'm talking about the MEANS in which you are doing so. Just because you ahve lots of reasons to avoid does not make ABC any better or more reasonable. All the while, you are actually causing way more harm to your body, and being riskier. I have the science behind my argument (morality aside). <strong>I can get you a list of docs who can explain in very detailed ways how harmful it is and how risky it is</strong>. Effectiveness rates are not opinion based... I'm not routine oriented either. I have crazy sleep schedules and a gig based job. The empowerment of knowing what is up with my body is WAY worth the few seconds a day it takes to observe and chart. There really is no routine or schedule. Why not even try it out before blowing it off so easily. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
To quote (or perhaps paraphras) Mark Twain, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics".
As a Catholic and anti-ABC person, you of course would find all the documentation about how bad and risky it is. As a proponent, I could find all the documentation about how it's not. Statistics and reports can be made to serve whomever and however they want them to.
I aboslutely appreciate your passion for your faith, it's teachings and the benefits of NFP over ABC; but I will continue on the choices and paths that I (and my FI) have chosen.
I do look forward to many more dicussions with you and the folks here on this board.
KJ, I'm really glad that you're here. I just wanted to point out that one of the leading causes of ABC failing is inappropriate use (ie: not taking the pill at the same time each day). For someone who is not good with schedule/routine, this could be a huge issue for you. I'm aware that there are other forms of ABC that don't require an alarm going off each day at the same time to remind someone to take it, I'm just saying that failing to take it could cause a pregnancy. I'm not expecting to change your mind, I just think you are mistaken that hormonal BC is more effective than NFP.
With NFP, it's incredibly easy to avoid pregnancy once you get the hang of it, because you know exactly when you are fertile and therefore can avoid intercourse during that time. There was something I read once that abstaining during parts of the woman's cycle actually reinvigorates the relationship, because it reintroduces "courting."
And, your case aside, I know several married girls who were using IUDs, contraceptive rings, and other BC that uses a really high dose of hormones who are now facing the possibility that they may have rendered themselves infertile. My fiance and I have obviously not started trying to conceive, but I do worry that, after six years on the pill, I may have caused myself more harm than I know.
I guess I would pose this then,..if you are so convinced that you are correct in your choices, then it would stand up to any kind of arguments brought up against it. So why not read the books? Why not give it a try? It would not harm anything to read up on it, and learn it. I would think with such a serious consequence (your life) being on the line, one would want to take all information in.
So...that being said:
Here's the information:
2 books by Christopher West
" Good news about sex and marriage" and "Theology of the body for beginners"
"Holy Sex" by popcak
and "Fatherless". This exposes the conspiracy of the studies that have been the "research" of effectiveness of the pill and its cause of breast cancer.
www.omsoul.com for harms of contraception and a doctor that can give better explanations. Also, NFP teachers (Creighton method needs least routine, and is also recommended for health issues). Add a fertility monitor on it for extra comfort.
You don't have to respond... I don't need to know whether you will look into it further, but honestly, I'm begging you. really. There is nothing lost on reading it.
@professor - That is a very valid argument, but I have been on ABC for about 12 years now (don't clutch your rosary too tightly ); so it's rather ingrained in my routine; and yes I could probably get into the routine of NFP; but I've not had issue in those twelve years and I do take the stance of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
And before anyone says anything - despite any reports/documentation you may have to the contrary - I don't consider myself broke.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:00349087-57ec-4971-970e-63671dc2209d">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]@professor - That is a very valid argument, but I have been on ABC for about 12 years now (don't clutch your rosary too tightly ); so it's rather ingrained in my routine; and yes I could probably get into the routine of NFP; but I've not had issue in those twelve years and I do take the stance of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". And before anyone says anything - despite any reports/documentation you may have to the contrary - I don't consider myself broke. Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
And that's fine -- I used to totally agree with that. I'm just saying it's a flawed argument that "lack of routine" is a good reason for not starting NFP. Good luck to you!
You may have missed the point of my Mark Twain quote. You will be able to find anything you want to say that ABC is wrong, research is faked. They are going to be by people who are against it.
I have no problem reading up on any of the information you have provided. I also have no intention of changing my way of thinking.
You (and I mean this specific) think what I am donig is morally wrong, you think you need to convince me that I am wrong. I am morally, spiritually and physically at peace with my decisions.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:efa8cc67-0419-43f6-a168-4a2b8c1bb34b">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : And that's fine -- I used to totally agree with that. I'm just saying it's a flawed argument that "lack of routine" is a good reason for not starting NFP. Good luck to you! Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
Agreed. It is a lame argument especially after some explanation that it is no more involved than taking the pill.
Yes, but, by our beliefs (and the beliefs of most Christians, I think), we will have to answer not just for our personal sins, but for standing by and allowing others to sin. Agape is doing what she can to convince you that you're wrong because that's what she's called to do.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:419863c8-eb53-41e5-a5e1-96ada4b26738">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]I guess I would pose this then,..if you are so convinced that you are correct in your choices, then it would stand up to any kind of arguments brought up against it. So why not read the books? Why not give it a try? It would not harm anything to read up on it, and learn it. I would think with such a serious consequence (your life) being on the line, one would want to take all information in. So...that being said: Here's the information: 2 books by Christopher West " Good news about sex and marriage" and "Theology of the body for beginners" "Holy Sex" by popcak and "Fatherless". <strong>This exposes the conspiracy of the studies that have been the "research" of effectiveness of the pill and its cause of breast cancer</strong>. <a href="http://www.omsoul.com" rel='nofollow'>www.omsoul.com</a> for harms of contraception and a doctor that can give better explanations. Also, NFP teachers (Creighton method needs least routine, and is also recommended for health issues). Add a fertility monitor on it for extra comfort. You don't have to respond... I don't need to know whether you will look into it further, but honestly, I'm begging you. really. There is nothing lost on reading it. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
So I just came back to this thread and am curious about this statement. Does one of these books say that the pill is not as effective as it claims to be and causes breast cancer?
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:ff2e00f8-25cc-4ff8-8ddb-8aadcd6e810f">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]kj, i know you are getting grilled, but seriously, the clutching of the rosary comment? come on. Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]
I apologize - I did mean it as a joke/sarcasm.
I truly meant no offense, but can agree that it was in poor taste.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:196b721e-8625-4a5e-9c27-24a7ca6c021c">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]Yes, but, by our beliefs (and the beliefs of most Christians, I think), we will have to answer not just for our personal sins, but for standing by and allowing others to sin. Agape is doing what she can to convince you that you're wrong because that's what she's called to do. Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
And I understand that, however, that goes back to my comment before that I don't believe it to be appropriate to judge the actions of someone who does have the same belief system.
My faith does not consider ABC a sin, therefore I am not wrong per my beliefs.
KJHowd, I got your point about statistics. But again, It won't hurt anything to READ the stuff. By the way, there is a lot of research by non-interested people, AND by people that were not against it in any way, as well as people FOR ABC. It's there.
Smia trow
the book fatherless is a fictional character story, with research behind the facts it gives about the pill , it causing abortions, and it causing breast cancer.
One of the biggest cover ups is that the "research" done included results by only women in their 50s taking the pill ...
The biggest risks for pill takers are aged late teens to early 20s, those that have not had children yet.
Our reproductive systems are a functioning (or struggling to function) part of our body. Taking a pill to make it stop working the way it should is not healthy.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:43c22fb8-7887-45c4-b0d8-940442346507">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : And I understand that, however, that goes back to my comment before that I don't believe it to be appropriate to judge the actions of someone who does have the same belief system. My faith does not consider ABC a sin, therefore I am not wrong per my beliefs. Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
<div>The actions remain the same morally though. Someone can tell me that robbing a bank is wrong...I can say "well, per my belief system, it isn't, so I'm not wrong per my beliefs, you can't judge my actions". </div><div> </div><div>I'm not judging your culpability, or how you will be accounatable to God...I would never nor is it anyone's place too.</div><div> </div><div>But again, something is a sin only because it is actually harmful to us. You can't "unbelieve" consequences. You may not see them directly in your life, but they are there. </div><div> </div><div>What has happened long term since sex and procreation have been separated by birth control?</div><div> </div><div>-Decrease in regard for human dignity</div><div>-divorce increased</div><div>-abortion increase and thought of as a "good"</div><div>-adultery increase</div><div>-pornography rampant</div><div>-loss of the meaning and understanding of marriage</div><div>-hormones in our water systems causing harm to humans and animals</div><div>-desensitization to immorality</div><div>-loss of recognition of a need for God </div><div>-Huge increase in female specific cancers</div><div> </div><div>Humane Vitae predicted this. FREUD even predicted a loss in family by the acceptance of birth control-- and he most definitely was not a friend of the Catholic church.</div><div> </div><div> </div>
I meant "non interested" by those who have no interest in the outcome.
Unbiased is of course important, but If the research you've done is by people that are FOR birth control, shouldn't you also give some time to those who are against it?
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:283db26e-250b-43dc-a222-bd151207d4f6">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : The actions remain the same morally though. Someone can tell me that robbing a bank is wrong...I can say "well, per my belief system, it isn't, so I'm not wrong per my beliefs, you can't judge my actions". I'm not judging your culpability, or how you will be accounatable to God...I would never nor is it anyone's place too. But again, something is a sin only because it is actually harmful to us. You can't "unbelieve" consequences. You may not see them directly in your life, but they are there. What has happened long term since sex and procreation have been separated by birth control? -Decrease in regard for human dignity -divorce increased -abortion increase and thought of as a "good" -adultery increase -pornography rampant -loss of the meaning and understanding of marriage -hormones in our water systems causing harm to humans and animals -desensitization to immorality -loss of recognition of a need for God -Huge increase in female specific cancers Humane Vitae predicted this. FREUD even predicted a loss in family by the acceptance of birth control-- and he most definitely was not a friend of the Catholic church. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
It really isn't the same (comparing bank robbery to birth control). If you can find me a belief system that thinks bank robbery is ok, I'll buy that argument; wherein there are different belief systems that have different views on BC.
If something is a sin because it is harmful to us, then I still don't believe that BC is a sin. It has not harmed me - it has helped me.
I also think that blaming a morally corrupt society solely on birth control is a bit of a stretch. There are a lot of other factors that play into why we have become a less moral society (and I agree that we have to a degree; there are many things in this country/world that no longer have any stigma associated with them that I think should).
Again, please, please - provide me with a list of unbiased research that has all that in it and I will be more than happy to read it; and debate it with you.
ETA: We were posting at the same time. I would want to read the unbiased opinions on both sides of the debate.
First off, you missed my point.... Lots of those things were PREDICTED ahead of time by humane vitae.
-about bank robbery...again, until 1930 ALL religions were against artificial birth control. It IS a good analogy to discuss the word "judgement" . Morality isn't relative and doesn't change to what we want it to be. There are belief systems (such as the terrorists) that believe killing people in the name of allah is good. That doesn't make it so.
As I said before, one may not see the spiritual or physical consequences, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. The hormones peed into the water systems that ended up effecting the fish is proof that there are consequences, even if it hasn't directly effected a specific person yet.
Except that the Humane Vitae was written by a pope. It is going to be a biased document. Now, I have never read it and I am scanning some of it online (I do not have the time right now to read thoroughly); from what I am looking it I have 2 comments:
1. The statements were nothing more than a reiteration of church teachings (that may be to general, again, have not read in depth) 2. Do you (general) really think that some of these morality issues were not around prior to 1968? Or even the 1930s when birth control became more prominent? The differences between then and now is that those things are not hidden away as the "skeletons in peoples" closets anymore. People were just as depraved and morally corrupt then as they are now.
And the bank robbery analogy doesn't work because not ALL people/religions etc consider birth control to to be immoral.
And with the exception of mentioning Freud - you have yet to find me something that doesn't have a Catholic bias. Reading her bio - Dr. Smith doesn't qualify.
If you can find me independent research(ers) that have no connection to the Catholic church, I will happily read what they have to say about it.
geez, did you even listen to the talk? She didn't do the research. IT wasn't even about cancer anyway.
All of the research you have read already...was it unbiased? or was it by proponents of abc?
You completely missed my point about the bank robbery. It IS a good analogy because it is talking about the word judgement of actions. As I said, there are belief systems that believe it is ok to kill people in terrorist acts, that is their belief system. That is so obviously wrong ..you can state the action is wrong, even though it isn't their belief system. The nazi belief system killed jews and believed that was a good. But I can't judge their actions because they have a different "belief system"?
In response to 2 of your posts...please note that I'm approaching this from a scientific stand point - not moral.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:b35d2800-e7b0-42a6-9d42-132118ea220f">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]KJHowd, I got your point about statistics. But again, It won't hurt anything to READ the stuff. By the way, there is a lot of research by non-interested people, AND by people that were not against it in any way, as well as people FOR ABC. It's there. Smia trow the book fatherless is a fictional character story, with research behind the facts it gives about the pill , it causing abortions, and it causing breast cancer. <strong>One of the biggest cover ups is that the "research" done included results by only women in their 50s taking the pill ... The biggest risks for pill takers are aged late teens to early 20s, those that have not had children yet.</strong> <strong>Our reproductive systems are a functioning (or struggling to function) part of our body. Taking a pill to make it stop working the way it should is not healthy.</strong> Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
So I would first like to thank you. After reading your post I went to the Mayo Clinic website and found out that the pill can increase the risk of some forms of cancer (which I did not know). However, I think it important to note it can also decrease the risk of others. I was also told by my OBGYN that the pill could decrease my chance of getting cancer (though I can't remember if it was breast or cervical). Also, it doesn't sound like there is conclusive evidence that the pill causes breast cancer. One or two studies is not enough information to say one way or the other. Also, I fail to see how it is a cover-up to have a study that researched the effects of the pill on women over 50. Women over 50 still have their periods so it seems like a reasonable study to me. Now if they are reporting false information based on this study - i.e. that this study also applies to teenagers - that's another issue. But I have no idea because I haven't read the study. If you have, I'd be interested to know the results were presented.
Also, the pill isn't necessarily causing your body to stop working how it should. The pill regulates your hormones - so you're really regulating your body. Now I know a lot of people don't like to mess with hormones because it can throw a persons body off - and that's perfectly fine. Also keep in mind that how a person responds to any form of BC depends a lot on their body chemistry. You may not react the same way to the pill that I do.
My overall point is that the pill isn't really that bad for you.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:283db26e-250b-43dc-a222-bd151207d4f6">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : The actions remain the same morally though. Someone can tell me that robbing a bank is wrong...I can say "well, per my belief system, it isn't, so I'm not wrong per my beliefs, you can't judge my actions". I'm not judging your culpability, or how you will be accounatable to God...I would never nor is it anyone's place too. But again, something is a sin only because it is actually harmful to us. You can't "unbelieve" consequences. You may not see them directly in your life, but they are there. <strong>What has happened long term since sex and procreation have been separated by birth control? -Decrease in regard for human dignity -divorce increased -abortion increase and thought of as a "good" -adultery increase -pornography rampant -loss of the meaning and understanding of marriage -hormones in our water systems causing harm to humans and animals -desensitization to immorality -loss of recognition of a need for God -Huge increase in female specific cancers Humane Vitae predicted this. FREUD even predicted a loss in family by the acceptance of birth control-- </strong>and he most definitely was not a friend of the Catholic church. Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
So this actually a pet peeve of mine. <strong>Correlation does not imply causation!!! </strong>You cannot link the use of BC to any of those things you listed.
Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I think this was responding to me? Even though this might seem like splitting hairs, its very important to use language correctly when talking about this... Using ABC does not preserve anyone's life. That's impossible. (In fact, the pill and other hormonal bc cuases more harm than any good). Using ABC might, depending on method, prevent ovulation, or keep sperm away from egg (condoms), OR in all hormonal bc methods, could possibly abort a child. <strong>It could be that the stress on the body from a pregnancy might cause a body damage that could be fatal. There is the difference.</strong> So one might have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy, but the means to doing so are vastly different between ABC and NFP. The ends are the same: not having children. The means are different. Kind of like someone either earning money or robbing a bank. Same ends: obtain money. Different means to get there: one is moral, the other isn't. About "judging"...we are definitely called to judge actions. Truth is not relative to what we want to be, it doesn't change. We cannot judge people's hearts. I understand different faiths have come to different conclusions about ABC, but most people in those faiths haven't done one lick of research about how that came to be. Did you know that ALL protestant faiths were against any kind of contraception until 1930s? Then they changed. I'd recommend reading up on why the church teaches what she does, as been recommended before, Christopher West books are a great start. I didn't say anything about infertiity. I was talking about purpuseful sterility (such as hormonal birth control, vasectomy, condoms--as in sterilizing the act). When a couple is infertile by no means of their own actions, they are not willfully holding anything back from their spouse.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
@Agape - Yes - I was "speaking" to you. I do understand in the very general sense; which is why I am engaged in the dicussion to learn the specifics.
Per the bolded part, I was hoping to keep this general and not personal; however, I had a uterin (sp?) condition (heredity) that required a procedure that makes pregnancy life-threatening for me. It is not due to stress that could cause fatal damage. It is a real and scary threat to my health/life. I know myself and that I would not be diligent to use NFP, so yes...I use ABC.
If it should fail (the ABC), we will cross that bridge when we come to it; but neither I nor my FI are willing to risk my life.
I understand that goes against your beliefs and the Church's teachings; we are comfortable with our decision.
ETA: I don't agree that we are called to judge. Only God can judge me. He will determine when I stand before him whether I am worthy or not. No one has the right to judge anyone else's choices. The Bible does not say AgapeCarrie (strictly as an example, I don't think you believe this and if we do there aer bigger issues <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />) will judge me at my death, but that God will.
[QUOTE]I wasn't talking about emotional stress, I was talking physical stress ( in a generic sense of any kind) that pregnancy could cause on the body, or any kind of physical situation that would make pregnancy harmful to someone. How do you know you wouldn't be diligent with NFP? I started charting when I was single for my health..,because I had health issues...and discovered some more by charting...it has been remarkable for my health and is extremely easy. Hormonal Birth control is extremely risky not only to health but in its effectiveness in preventing conception. NFP effectiveness rate is way better than any other method. By using ABC you are actually taking more risk in getting pregnant, and therefore your life, by trusting abc. I know of several people who cannot get pregnant again because it would be life threatening. They are using NFP to avoid pregnancy and doing very well. I'd again recommend the books listed in this thread as well.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
I can appreciate that; however I disagree that there is more risk of pregnancy on hormonal birth control. But that is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. I would also like to throw out there that at my age (I am pushing 40) pregnancy is also that much riskier. I have many reasons why I choose not to go with NFP and I know wouldn't be diligent, I am not good with schedule & routine. We all know our own strengths & weaknesses.
[QUOTE] ETA: I don't agree that we are called to judge. Only God can judge me. He will determine when I stand before him whether I am worthy or not. No one has the right to judge anyone else's choices. The Bible does not say AgapeCarrie (strictly as an example, I don't think you believe this and if we do there aer bigger issues ) will judge me at my death, but that God will.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
There is a differnce between judging <em>actions </em>and judging <em>people/their soul</em>. By judging actions, we are saying "that is/is NOT God's will". So, you are correct that only God can judge me and my soul. But we are called to judge <em>actions</em> for the purpose of HELPING the person from harming their soul. So, it comes from a good place, even if it is "tough love".
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I can appreciate that; however I disagree that there is more risk of pregnancy on hormonal birth control. But that is a topic we will have to agree to disagree on. I would also like to throw out there that at my age (I am pushing 40) pregnancy is also that much riskier. I have many reasons why I choose not to go with NFP and I know wouldn't be diligent, I am not good with schedule & routine. We all know our own strengths & weaknesses.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
<div>I have in no way quesitoned your reasoning for needing to avoid pregnancy ( in fact your first example of getting personal wasn't necessary to discuss it either--I'm not saying it was inappropriate, I'm just saying) You don't need to keep explaining yourself. </div><div>
</div><div>I'm talking about the MEANS in which you are doing so. Just because you ahve lots of reasons to avoid does not make ABC any better or more reasonable. All the while, you are actually causing way more harm to your body, and being riskier. I have the science behind my argument (morality aside). I can get you a list of docs who can explain in very detailed ways how harmful it is and how risky it is. Effectiveness rates are not opinion based...</div><div>
</div><div>I'm not routine oriented either. I have crazy sleep schedules and a gig based job. The empowerment of knowing what is up with my body is WAY worth the few seconds a day it takes to observe and chart. There really is no routine or schedule. </div><div>Why not even try it out before blowing it off so easily.</div>
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : There is a differnce between judging actions and judging people/their soul . By judging actions, we are saying "that is/is NOT God's will". So, you are correct that only God can judge me and my soul. But we are called to judge actions for the purpose of HELPING the person from harming their soul. So, it comes from a good place, even if it is "tough love".
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. However, "tough love" or not; I think it inappropriate for anyone to judge someone who does not share the same belief system. We all believe that our religion, be it one of the many Christian sects (Cathlic, Baptist, Methodist etc), Judaism, Islam, is the "right" one; but I would not judge any person for beliefs they do not share with me.
FTR - I have not felt judged (here at least), this has been an enlightening & interesting discussion for me; and I come into this (and all others) with full knowledge this will be "all Catholic, all the time" with folks are fiercely strong in their fatih.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : I have in no way quesitoned your reasoning for needing to avoid pregnancy ( in fact your first example of getting personal wasn't necessary to discuss it either--I'm not saying it was inappropriate, I'm just saying) You don't need to keep explaining yourself. I'm talking about the MEANS in which you are doing so. Just because you ahve lots of reasons to avoid does not make ABC any better or more reasonable. All the while, you are actually causing way more harm to your body, and being riskier. I have the science behind my argument (morality aside). <strong>I can get you a list of docs who can explain in very detailed ways how harmful it is and how risky it is</strong>. Effectiveness rates are not opinion based... I'm not routine oriented either. I have crazy sleep schedules and a gig based job. The empowerment of knowing what is up with my body is WAY worth the few seconds a day it takes to observe and chart. There really is no routine or schedule. Why not even try it out before blowing it off so easily.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
To quote (or perhaps paraphras) Mark Twain, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics".
As a Catholic and anti-ABC person, you of course would find all the documentation about how bad and risky it is. As a proponent, I could find all the documentation about how it's not. Statistics and reports can be made to serve whomever and however they want them to.
I aboslutely appreciate your passion for your faith, it's teachings and the benefits of NFP over ABC; but I will continue on the choices and paths that I (and my FI) have chosen.
I do look forward to many more dicussions with you and the folks here on this board.
With NFP, it's incredibly easy to avoid pregnancy once you get the hang of it, because you know exactly when you are fertile and therefore can avoid intercourse during that time. There was something I read once that abstaining during parts of the woman's cycle actually reinvigorates the relationship, because it reintroduces "courting."
And, your case aside, I know several married girls who were using IUDs, contraceptive rings, and other BC that uses a really high dose of hormones who are now facing the possibility that they may have rendered themselves infertile. My fiance and I have obviously not started trying to conceive, but I do worry that, after six years on the pill, I may have caused myself more harm than I know.
And before anyone says anything - despite any reports/documentation you may have to the contrary - I don't consider myself broke.
[QUOTE]@professor - That is a very valid argument, but I have been on ABC for about 12 years now (don't clutch your rosary too tightly ); so it's rather ingrained in my routine; and yes I could probably get into the routine of NFP; but I've not had issue in those twelve years and I do take the stance of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". And before anyone says anything - despite any reports/documentation you may have to the contrary - I don't consider myself broke.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
And that's fine -- I used to totally agree with that. I'm just saying it's a flawed argument that "lack of routine" is a good reason for not starting NFP. Good luck to you!
Agape -
You may have missed the point of my Mark Twain quote. You will be able to find anything you want to say that ABC is wrong, research is faked. They are going to be by people who are against it.
I have no problem reading up on any of the information you have provided. I also have no intention of changing my way of thinking.
You (and I mean this specific) think what I am donig is morally wrong, you think you need to convince me that I am wrong. I am morally, spiritually and physically at peace with my decisions.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : And that's fine -- I used to totally agree with that. I'm just saying it's a flawed argument that "lack of routine" is a good reason for not starting NFP. Good luck to you!
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
Agreed. It is a lame argument especially after some explanation that it is no more involved than taking the pill.
Thanks.
kj, i know you are getting grilled, but seriously, the clutching of the rosary comment? come on.
[QUOTE]I guess I would pose this then,..if you are so convinced that you are correct in your choices, then it would stand up to any kind of arguments brought up against it. So why not read the books? Why not give it a try? It would not harm anything to read up on it, and learn it. I would think with such a serious consequence (your life) being on the line, one would want to take all information in. So...that being said: Here's the information: 2 books by Christopher West " Good news about sex and marriage" and "Theology of the body for beginners" "Holy Sex" by popcak and "Fatherless". <strong>This exposes the conspiracy of the studies that have been the "research" of effectiveness of the pill and its cause of breast cancer</strong>. <a href="http://www.omsoul.com" rel='nofollow'>www.omsoul.com</a> for harms of contraception and a doctor that can give better explanations. Also, NFP teachers (Creighton method needs least routine, and is also recommended for health issues). Add a fertility monitor on it for extra comfort. You don't have to respond... I don't need to know whether you will look into it further, but honestly, I'm begging you. really. There is nothing lost on reading it.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
So I just came back to this thread and am curious about this statement. Does one of these books say that the pill is not as effective as it claims to be and causes breast cancer?
[QUOTE]kj, i know you are getting grilled, but seriously, the clutching of the rosary comment? come on.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]
I apologize - I did mean it as a joke/sarcasm.
I truly meant no offense, but can agree that it was in poor taste.
[QUOTE]Yes, but, by our beliefs (and the beliefs of most Christians, I think), we will have to answer not just for our personal sins, but for standing by and allowing others to sin. Agape is doing what she can to convince you that you're wrong because that's what she's called to do.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
And I understand that, however, that goes back to my comment before that I don't believe it to be appropriate to judge the actions of someone who does have the same belief system.
My faith does not consider ABC a sin, therefore I am not wrong per my beliefs.
However, there is a difference between non-interested and unbiased and I would be interested in the unbiased research.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : And I understand that, however, that goes back to my comment before that I don't believe it to be appropriate to judge the actions of someone who does have the same belief system. My faith does not consider ABC a sin, therefore I am not wrong per my beliefs.
Posted by kjhowd[/QUOTE]
<div>The actions remain the same morally though. Someone can tell me that robbing a bank is wrong...I can say "well, per my belief system, it isn't, so I'm not wrong per my beliefs, you can't judge my actions". </div><div>
</div><div>I'm not judging your culpability, or how you will be accounatable to God...I would never nor is it anyone's place too.</div><div>
</div><div>But again, something is a sin only because it is actually harmful to us. You can't "unbelieve" consequences. You may not see them directly in your life, but they are there. </div><div>
</div><div>What has happened long term since sex and procreation have been separated by birth control?</div><div>
</div><div>-Decrease in regard for human dignity</div><div>-divorce increased</div><div>-abortion increase and thought of as a "good"</div><div>-adultery increase</div><div>-pornography rampant</div><div>-loss of the meaning and understanding of marriage</div><div>-hormones in our water systems causing harm to humans and animals</div><div>-desensitization to immorality</div><div>-loss of recognition of a need for God </div><div>-Huge increase in female specific cancers</div><div>
</div><div>Humane Vitae predicted this. FREUD even predicted a loss in family by the acceptance of birth control-- and he most definitely was not a friend of the Catholic church.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : The actions remain the same morally though. Someone can tell me that robbing a bank is wrong...I can say "well, per my belief system, it isn't, so I'm not wrong per my beliefs, you can't judge my actions". I'm not judging your culpability, or how you will be accounatable to God...I would never nor is it anyone's place too. But again, something is a sin only because it is actually harmful to us. You can't "unbelieve" consequences. You may not see them directly in your life, but they are there. What has happened long term since sex and procreation have been separated by birth control? -Decrease in regard for human dignity -divorce increased -abortion increase and thought of as a "good" -adultery increase -pornography rampant -loss of the meaning and understanding of marriage -hormones in our water systems causing harm to humans and animals -desensitization to immorality -loss of recognition of a need for God -Huge increase in female specific cancers Humane Vitae predicted this. FREUD even predicted a loss in family by the acceptance of birth control-- and he most definitely was not a friend of the Catholic church.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
It really isn't the same (comparing bank robbery to birth control). If you can find me a belief system that thinks bank robbery is ok, I'll buy that argument; wherein there are different belief systems that have different views on BC.
If something is a sin because it is harmful to us, then I still don't believe that BC is a sin. It has not harmed me - it has helped me.
I also think that blaming a morally corrupt society solely on birth control is a bit of a stretch. There are a lot of other factors that play into why we have become a less moral society (and I agree that we have to a degree; there are many things in this country/world that no longer have any stigma associated with them that I think should).
Again, please, please - provide me with a list of unbiased research that has all that in it and I will be more than happy to read it; and debate it with you.
ETA: We were posting at the same time. I would want to read the unbiased opinions on both sides of the debate.
1. The statements were nothing more than a reiteration of church teachings (that may be to general, again, have not read in depth)
2. Do you (general) really think that some of these morality issues were not around prior to 1968? Or even the 1930s when birth control became more prominent? The differences between then and now is that those things are not hidden away as the "skeletons in peoples" closets anymore. People were just as depraved and morally corrupt then as they are now.
And the bank robbery analogy doesn't work because not ALL people/religions etc consider birth control to to be immoral.
If you can find me independent research(ers) that have no connection to the Catholic church, I will happily read what they have to say about it.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:b35d2800-e7b0-42a6-9d42-132118ea220f">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]KJHowd, I got your point about statistics. But again, It won't hurt anything to READ the stuff. By the way, there is a lot of research by non-interested people, AND by people that were not against it in any way, as well as people FOR ABC. It's there. Smia trow the book fatherless is a fictional character story, with research behind the facts it gives about the pill , it causing abortions, and it causing breast cancer. <strong>One of the biggest cover ups is that the "research" done included results by only women in their 50s taking the pill ... The biggest risks for pill takers are aged late teens to early 20s, those that have not had children yet.</strong> <strong>Our reproductive systems are a functioning (or struggling to function) part of our body. Taking a pill to make it stop working the way it should is not healthy.</strong>
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
So I would first like to thank you. After reading your post I went to the Mayo Clinic website and found out that the pill can increase the risk of some forms of cancer (which I did not know). However, I think it important to note it can also decrease the risk of others. I was also told by my OBGYN that the pill could decrease my chance of getting cancer (though I can't remember if it was breast or cervical). Also, it doesn't sound like there is conclusive evidence that the pill causes breast cancer. One or two studies is not enough information to say one way or the other. Also, I fail to see how it is a cover-up to have a study that researched the effects of the pill on women over 50. Women over 50 still have their periods so it seems like a reasonable study to me. Now if they are reporting false information based on this study - i.e. that this study also applies to teenagers - that's another issue. But I have no idea because I haven't read the study. If you have, I'd be interested to know the results were presented.
Also, the pill isn't necessarily causing your body to stop working how it should. The pill regulates your hormones - so you're really regulating your body. Now I know a lot of people don't like to mess with hormones because it can throw a persons body off - and that's perfectly fine. Also keep in mind that how a person responds to any form of BC depends a lot on their body chemistry. You may not react the same way to the pill that I do.
My overall point is that the pill isn't really that bad for you.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_wanting-children-getting-married-catholic-church?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:e28f60c4-6ea2-442f-b9a6-ae6796eead9ePost:283db26e-250b-43dc-a222-bd151207d4f6">Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: No wanting children and getting married in Catholic Church : The actions remain the same morally though. Someone can tell me that robbing a bank is wrong...I can say "well, per my belief system, it isn't, so I'm not wrong per my beliefs, you can't judge my actions". I'm not judging your culpability, or how you will be accounatable to God...I would never nor is it anyone's place too. But again, something is a sin only because it is actually harmful to us. You can't "unbelieve" consequences. You may not see them directly in your life, but they are there. <strong>What has happened long term since sex and procreation have been separated by birth control? -Decrease in regard for human dignity -divorce increased -abortion increase and thought of as a "good" -adultery increase -pornography rampant -loss of the meaning and understanding of marriage -hormones in our water systems causing harm to humans and animals -desensitization to immorality -loss of recognition of a need for God -Huge increase in female specific cancers Humane Vitae predicted this. FREUD even predicted a loss in family by the acceptance of birth control-- </strong>and he most definitely was not a friend of the Catholic church.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
So this actually a pet peeve of mine. <strong>Correlation does not imply causation!!! </strong>You cannot link the use of BC to any of those things you listed.