Catholic Weddings

Heaviness in my heart

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Re: Heaviness in my heart

  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I have a lot of thoughts here... and then I need to get to bed. May fall on deaf ears here since this has been argued for 5 pages already, but I'll feel better having posted...

    This thread was created as a "this upset me, I want someone to talk to about it." Some of us chimed in with "oh so sad" and "I will pray"... How is that turned into "this thread was created for hatred and judgment" ?!?

    I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Churh. And its not blind belief--what I questioned, I studied. And learned why the Church's teachings are the Truth. If you believe the Church to be wrong, horrible, anti-woman, whatever... I'm sorry. Please let us discuss our beliefs. And if you don't understand them, ask; but if you're posting here because you are angry about the church's teachings... you still need to be respectful.
    ......
    No one said that the parents of an IVF child that has defects were being punished for their actions.
    ......
    And what about the original idea that so many of the first posters commented on, that there are so many embryos that will be left to die? Even without the natural vs. artificial conception discussion, this is still possibly the most serious issue with IVF.
    ......

    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:b22ad1f6-c236-4400-8078-1f486a5217de">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Well here is some semantics for you. People who think like you and the rest of your little rat pack are the reason why the phrase "Ignorant, bible thumping, Jesus freak" was coined. Just saying.
    Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

    "Its the epitome of hypocrisy."
    If we should not judge you, then why is it ok for you judge us?

    How sad that a person who came on here and tried to explain her beliefs without being angry or rude about it received a comment like this. Just saying.
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  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:fc491cf5-8933-4522-b3e1-6555b63b1a11">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Just like people who have sex before marriage cant call themselves a practicing catholic since its fornication.  Or if you use the pill or condoms when you are married. Since you have been married and having sex all of 9 days, I wonder what makes you think you are an expert on all things fertility? Or maybe you are just a sinner like the rest of those you are judging and finger waving at? Its the epitome of hypocrisy.
    Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

    <div>Well, for starters, I went to medical school, so I am actually well-versed in OB/Gyn.</div><div>
    </div><div>I would like to know why is it that I've seen some girls on the International boards slaughtered for using non-PC terms, but all of you feel so comfortable coming to the Catholic board and being so hateful against this religion?  Why do so-called PC people think that respecting Catholicism is beneath them? </div><div>
    </div><div>And why on earth are you getting married in the Catholic church if you feel so strongly against its teachings?  I'd rethink your venue.</div>
  • Blueyed228Blueyed228 member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:795c2cc7-95f0-475a-8b79-df0938d4a70d">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Well, for starters, I went to medical school, so I am actually well-versed in OB/Gyn. I would like to know why is it that I've seen some girls on the International boards slaughtered for using non-PC terms, but all of you feel so comfortable coming to the Catholic board and being so hateful against this religion?  Why do so-called PC people think that respecting Catholicism is beneath them?  And why on earth are you getting married in the Catholic church if you feel so strongly against its teachings?  I'd rethink your venue.
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    Just because you went to medical school does not mean you have had any personal experience with infertility or the feelings, thoughts, and emotions that go along with learning that you will never conceive a child of your own without science.

    No one is being hateful against the religion, or hateful at all.  Just because we call you hypocritical has nothing to do with your religion.  You are the one laying down your version of catholic law, not us.  Just because it is your <em>interpretation </em>of the teachings, does not make it the true word of god.  and when other posters were given factual information that proved they were lying, they still said 'its gods will'.

    People are angry that misinformation was given and that judgements were being made against women who choose to go this route when starting a family.

    I am getting married in a catholic church because that was fi's request.  if it was up to me we would be getting married on a beach somewhere far away from an institution that has judged me before i even walked in the door.

    also, since this is an international website, we can post wherever we like.

    there is a reason why catholicism is on the decline.
    045_45-1 photo 045_45-1.jpg
    BabyFruit Ticker
    DX: PCOS/Recurrent losses/MTHFR mutation (compound hetero)
    5 hysteroscopies/2 surgical
    3 Inject IUIs = 2 m/c's and 1 BFN
    IVF #1= BFP. m/c at 7w6d. Needed 2 D&C's and scar tissue removal. Mild OHSS
    IVF #2 = BFP. Severe OHSS. 4 Drainings. TWINS!
  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:92ee8702-dde1-4b4e-a3c4-c5fe27e0ccf2">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Just because you went to medical school does not mean you have had any personal experience with infertility or the feelings, thoughts, and emotions that go along with learning that you will never conceive a child of your own without science. No one is being hateful against the religion, or hateful at all.  Just because we call you hypocritical has nothing to do with your religion.  You are the one laying down your version of catholic law, not us.  Just because it is your interpretation of the teachings, does not make it the true word of god.  and when other posters were given factual information that proved they were lying, they still said 'its gods will'. People are angry that misinformation was given and that judgements were being made against women who choose to go this route when starting a family. I am getting married in a catholic church because that was fi's request.  if it was up to me we would be getting married on a beach somewhere far away from an institution that has judged me before i even walked in the door. also, since this is an international website, we can post wherever we like. there is a reason why catholicism is on the decline.
    Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>Let's talk about misinformation.  There is a growing number of Catholics, not a declining number, both in the US and in the world.  Why are you making incorrect blanket statements?</div><div>
    </div><div>When did someone in this thread say "It's God's will" in response to being called out for lying?</div><div>
    </div><div>Re-read some of your posts in this thread, and tell me again that they weren't hateful or full of twisted half-truths.  </div><div>
    </div><div>The Catholic Church isn't against using science for conception, but the science is supposed to be used within the bounds of the religion for practicing Catholics.  I mentioned this in a previous post.  So no conception without sex (ie IVF), but fertility-promoting medications are fine.  And the church considers all life precious, so that means that IVF babies are just as real and loved by God as any other baby, but that also means that babies created using scientific technology are supposed to be treated the same way as other babies as well -- no selling of embryos to other couples or to medical research, no embryo destruction, and no selective abortion.  </div><div>
    </div><div>I don't expect people who haven't studied reproductive technology and medical ethics and the Bible to be able to understand this stuff.  But I'm going to stop wasting my time debating you unless you can give me real citations proving your point.  I have plenty of objective evidence supporting my arguments.</div>
  • Blueyed228Blueyed228 member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:5f4b8544-1f1a-45ca-8fba-05b1e71e600f">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Let's talk about misinformation.  There is a growing number of Catholics, not a declining number, both in the US and in the world.  Why are you making incorrect blanket statements? When did someone in this thread say "It's God's will" in response to being called out for lying? Re-read some of your posts in this thread, and tell me again that they weren't hateful or full of twisted half-truths.   The Catholic Church isn't against using science for conception, but the science is supposed to be used within the bounds of the religion for practicing Catholics.  I mentioned this in a previous post.  So no conception without sex (ie IVF), but fertility-promoting medications are fine.  And the church considers all life precious, so that means that IVF babies are just as real and loved by God as any other baby, but that also means that babies created using scientific technology are supposed to be treated the same way as other babies as well -- no selling of embryos to other couples or to medical research, no embryo destruction, and no selective abortion.   I don't expect people who haven't studied reproductive technology and medical ethics and the Bible to be able to understand this stuff.  But I'm going to stop wasting my time debating you unless you can give me real citations proving your point.  I have plenty of objective evidence supporting my arguments.
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    8 out of 10 "Catholics" I know support IVF, Abortion, and Gay Marriage.  So are they real catholics?  So just because the numbers are there, does not actually mean that they are all true catholics.

    Im done with this argument as well.  I quoted and argued the non-truths already in this thread.  Feel free to re-read them.  Its like talking to a wall with you.  You are claiming that you are the judge and jury on what is accepted in the Catholic church, so whats the point of explaining to you and others that what you are saying is not in fact true. 

    Catholics cant even agree amongst themselves what is "gods will" or not.  Neither can priests or bishops, etc.  Since it is all left up to "interpretation", there is no real answer now is there?  I was told by the archdiocese that it is "up to the priest" whether he will marry FI and I or not since I am not catholic.  So where is the rule on that?  And if there is a rule, why is the rule allowed to be interpreted from priest to priest however they see fit?

    That is the hypocrisy I am talking about.
    045_45-1 photo 045_45-1.jpg
    BabyFruit Ticker
    DX: PCOS/Recurrent losses/MTHFR mutation (compound hetero)
    5 hysteroscopies/2 surgical
    3 Inject IUIs = 2 m/c's and 1 BFN
    IVF #1= BFP. m/c at 7w6d. Needed 2 D&C's and scar tissue removal. Mild OHSS
    IVF #2 = BFP. Severe OHSS. 4 Drainings. TWINS!
  • edited December 2011
    I've spent some time now deciding how/if I wanted to respond to this post. I know my previous post in this thread got dragged into the middle of things at one point, but I'm going to lay that aside, since it was like 4 pages ago.

    When I posted, this looked pretty much like other threads on what is generally a fairly slow board. I posted a response that is in accord with Catholic teachings (whether or not you agree with those teachings and whether or not people who self-identify as Catholics agree with those teachings, they are the Church's teachings), in language that I would consider Catholic for an audience that is usually comfortable with that. Usually, when I post, there are no more than a few responses when I check back later. I was shocked to find 5 pages of vitrol.

    Some generic thoughts, because I feel like I need to say something in support of my fellow Catholic girls:

    1. Good job to Agape, Mica, Bel and the others who where strong in defending the faith. Thank you for your witness.

    2. To all the ladies who came over here to trash our beliefs, I'm sorry you disagree with us. Please just respect our faith and our opinions. I genuinely do my best to love people, but I know it's hard.
     
    3. I know that fertility issues aren't easy. I know that the solutions are not easy. I know that what the Church teaches is not easy. I have made the personal choice to live my life as best I can according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I don't see what's wrong with that.

    4. I get really frustrated when people aren't allowed to just disagree.

    5. We're all sinners. Every. Last. One. Of. Us. We can try to justify our actions however we want, but there is still a right and a wrong.

    6. I have enjoyed that this has been a safe place to discuss Catholic teachings, occasionally debate some nebulous issues, and answer innocuous questions about Psalms and the like. I hope we can continue to have that supportive and encouraging environment on here.

    Pax
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  • edited December 2011
    Wow, that is all I can say. I am not even going to voice my true opinions after all that bc I am sure they are in there.
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  • edited December 2011
    Heavenly Father, eternal, changeless, and faithful
    Lord, we recognize that we are in need of forgiveness
    as a nation, for turning our hearts away from you.
    Hear our prayer of repentance Lord and cleanse us
    from all unrighteousness. We praise you for your
    tender mercies and your compassion that never fails.

    Lord, it is only by Your grace that we can live lives
    that are just, and merciful. May Your Holy Spirit
    enable us to walk humbly in Your presence and may You
    be pleased to restore America so that a generation
    not yet born may praise you. In the name of Christ
    Jesus, who has done great things for us, Amen.
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  • lisa89760lisa89760 member
    Fourth Anniversary 500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I don't agree with people who are not Catholic coming onto this board and trashing the Catholic beliefs because this is a Catholic board.  And as much as I don't agree with some of the peoples views on here about IVF, they are following our faith.  If you are atheist or agnostic, or another religion you obviously aren't going to agree with the conservative catholic beliefs. 

    There is a lot of debate within the Catholic community regarding IVF, abortion, gay marriage etc.  We all know what the Catholic church teaches but we all also are aware of real life situations which makes it not a black and white situation. 

    I don't consider myself less of a Catholic because I don't completly follow the Catholic beliefs on these issues.  But I don't appreciate having people come here bashing my faith.  There is a reason I still choose to be Catholic even though I don't 100% believe in the stance the Catholic church takes on social issues. 

    I don't judge anyone for what they have to do in certain situations.  (i.e abortion, I would never do it BUT I don't feel it's my place to picket outside of abortion clinics)

    The women on here who don't agree with IVF are spreading their beliefs.  While I don't agree, I don't see anything wrong with that. 

    So that's my little vent right there =) I hope the Catholics out there still plan on posting their opinions and while I don't always agree with them I do have your backs when it comes to our faith!
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  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary
    edited December 2011
    My head and heart are aching.  I could not sleep for a long time last night because the discussions on this thread bothered me so much, even after a long discussion about the topic with my (non-Catholic) husband.  Thank you, bibliophile, for your words.  They soothed me and helped me back to clarity and reminded me that this place is usually not a malignant place.

    I get so angry when people use pop culture references to attack any group, but of course it feels more personal when it is the Catholic Church.  I am all for the freedom of speech, but I can't stand the stereotypes that have developed from general ignorance and dependence on the popular media for information.  If you are going to make outrageous or inflammatory statements, please back them up with fact.  If you can't/won't do that, then the attack of other people with valid beliefs is, well, harassment.

    When I feel bummed out by something in real life, I remind myself to read a little more than usual from the Bible to find solace.  It is amazing that the Lord always seems to speak to me in my times of need, even when my Bible reading does not seem directed.  
    Proverbs 26:20-22 (KJV):
    20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.
    21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.
    22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary
    edited December 2011
    I'm just going to add a couple more things, then I'm going to try to rid my mind of this whole thread.

    1. I did contemplate reporting some of the people who posted yesterday.  It's one thing to disagree with what others are saying.  It's another thing to call people "Jesus freaks."  I ultimately chose not to report anyone because I just don't feel like starting up more conflict.

    2. For anyone who's ever doubted, for anyone who started doubting while reading this thread or any other thread that questions the faith, I'd like to recommend Dinesh d'Souza's "What Christianity Is Great."  d'Souza is no longer Catholic, but he uses the Catholic church in many of his examples of the greatness of Christianity.  More importantly, he tackles a lot of the misinformed stereotypes of the religion as a whole with completely factual (historical, statistical, biological) evidence.  

    I was not always a practicing Catholic.  That came after I met my husband and he sat me down with a reading list by authors who explored a lot of the spiritual and ethical questions from a purely objective standpoint.  After I read and had my eyes opened, I started praying and found my way back to the church.  When I am on this board, I don't say things just because my church school leader told me it was so or because I heard something on the TV.  I love participating on this board because it forces me to continue to question myself and my beliefs.  Hopefully, yesterday's events won't scare off people who want to explore Catholicism further in a respectful, meaningful way.
  • edited December 2011
    Well, this certainly has exploded over night! 

    I really don't like seeing people attacking each other over differences of opinions.  I think we all just need to keep in mind that it is totally fine to agree to disagree over these topics. 

    We don't need to insult people for their beliefs and we don't need to insult people who don't believe everything you do.  This is a Catholic board and that entitles anyone with a Catholic connection to post their views on a given subject (hopefully in a nice non-insulting way)...this could be what some people have called "practicing" Catholics (which I think is kind of insulting to assume that just because you don't necessarily believe in every last thing the church teaches that you are any less of a practicing Catholic), the non-practicing Catholics, people who are getting married in the Catholic church because of their FI, or whatever other connections you can think of.

    All of these groups of people have an opinion and these will be different.  I think sometimes people try and defend their positions to the point that the defenses turn into insulting the other.  There are tons of sticky subjects out there that will seriously NEVER get agreed upon in society.  There will always be sides.

    On a side note:  I do agree that it probably comes off a little condescending to people when people with opposing points of view say they'll "pray for them" or just flat out break into prayer on the board without actually contributing to the coversation.  Prayers for the sake of proving a point or pointing out to someone that you are praying for them for their sins comes off as extremely judgmental and condescending.  You don't need to make a point of this.
  • tldhtldh member
    2500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:795c2cc7-95f0-475a-8b79-df0938d4a70d">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Well, for starters, I went to medical school, so I am actually well-versed in OB/Gyn.<strong> I would like to know why is it that I've seen some girls on the International boards slaughtered for using non-PC terms, but all of you feel so comfortable coming to the Catholic board and being so hateful against this religion?  Why do so-called PC people think that respecting Catholicism is beneath them?</strong>  And why on earth are you getting married in the Catholic church if you feel so strongly against its teachings?  I'd rethink your venue.
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    I am a Catholic (born and raised and 12 years of Catholic school), though I'm sure every regular on this board would disagree.  This thread started because OP saw something on an International board and decided that  someone else is a horrible sinner.  If you really believe that strongly in your opinions, did you post that opinion on the international thread or did you just come running over here where you knew all the regulars would agree with you?

    I respect Catholicism.  I respect people's right to believe what they want.  What I don't respect is the arrogance of some who believe that their belief is the only true faith in God.  I don't respect the arrogance of some that their way of living should be the only way of living.  This doesn't just go for some Catholics.  You'll find this in the attitudes of some members of every faith and atheism.  Live your life how you want.  Don't presume to think that this way is the way every other single person should live.

    I don't remember which PP said it, but I was also raised to believe that your faith is something personal, between you and God and no one else and that you should approach it in a humble way.  I pray every day, but I certainly don't post those prayers.  I don't even say them out loud.  My rosary is kept by my bed.

    When I go to church, I attend my DH's Greek Orthodox church because it makes more sense.  The priest is married and a father and can actually talk to parishioners from a personal point of view and experience with problems we may have.  I haven't set foot in a Catholic church since a priest decided to give a sermon that was 100% on political issues telling us how to think and vote.  That's where they lost me.  My Catholic beliefs didn't change, just my ability to put up with the high and mighty arrogance. 
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  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:bb29ea4b-b5b0-4080-a11e-db487a37e535">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I am a Catholic (born and raised and 12 years of Catholic school), though I'm sure every regular on this board would disagree.  This thread started because OP saw something on an International board and decided that  someone else is a horrible sinner.  If you really believe that strongly in your opinions, did you post that opinion on the international thread or did you just come running over here where you knew all the regulars would agree with you? I respect Catholicism.  I respect people's right to believe what they want.  What I don't respect is the arrogance of some who believe that their belief is the only true faith in God.  I don't respect the arrogance of some that their way of living should be the only way of living.  This doesn't just go for some Catholics.  You'll find this in the attitudes of some members of every faith and atheism.  Live your life how you want.  Don't presume to think that this way is the way every other single person should live. I don't remember which PP said it, but I was also raised to believe that your faith is something personal, between you and God and no one else and that you should approach it in a humble way.  I pray every day, but I certainly don't post those prayers.  I don't even say them out loud.  My rosary is kept by my bed. When I go to church, I attend my DH's Greek Orthodox church because it makes more sense.  The priest is married and a father and can actually talk to parishioners from a personal point of view and experience with problems we may have.  I haven't set foot in a Catholic church since a priest decided to give a sermon that was 100% on political issues telling us how to think and vote.  That's where they lost me.  My Catholic beliefs didn't change, just my ability to put up with the high and mighty arrogance. 
    Posted by tldh[/QUOTE]


    Thank you, Trisha.
    Your post was, in my opinion, the only sane and reasonable one to date.
  • K&J64K&J64 member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I wanted to share this blog I just read on this post. This woman (I don't know her) is a shining example of Christianity. She's spreading love and joy, I think everyone can learn something from this:

    http://momastery.blogspot.com/2010/10/mountain-im-willing-to-die-on.html

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  • newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
    1000 Comments Fourth Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Wow... this thread was full of a whole lot of anger and not a lot of dialogue.  You may consider the Church to be misogynistic, out of touch, restrictive or just plain mean... but hurling insults and sarcastic jibes will accomplish absolutely nothing unless all you're looking for is a fight for the sake of arguing rather than understanding or clarification. 

    If you want to make a complaint about a specific church teaching... you're looking in the wrong place for answers.  First place to check is the Catechism of the Catholic Church... if that doesn't give you a satisfactory answer, go ask someone in the Catholic Answers forum.  If you still disagree... that's fine... but catholic teachings are not defined by one's personal opinion or contemporary culture; they are defined by tradition, sacred scripture and the magesterium.
  • rombacjarombacja member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:283d2c81-9fd4-48b1-b4be-655bda301244">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]When I started this thread, I did not identify who are where the post was from. Its not "spreading hate". I started it in hopes of more prayer for this issue, those poor babies that will never have life, <strong>perhaps someone can spiritually adopt one and name one, because right now they don't have names</strong>.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Ok - so I've read a lot of this posting and there are a lot of angry people, and rightfully so - this is a very touchy subject. And there are a lot of RIDICULOUS statements from both sides of the argument. That said, the above is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks or months or maybe my entire life. If you want to pray for the victims of abortion and for embryos that are never born, I say go for it. If you want to pray women who are making these tough decisions, I say go for it. But the idea of naming the unborn is just really weird. This reminds me of the way that the Church used to let grade school kids donate money so they could buy and "name" pagan babies in Africa. Really weird Agapecarrie.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Actually, its not. The idea of a "name" is very important. We call upon saints names, God knows our names, and honors the name that our earthly parents gave us. We take on saint names at sacraments.

    When a woman confesses an abortion, many priests ask her to name their deceased children. This is the first step to healing for them (as they do this in healing retreats for those involved in abortions too). Also, when one miscarries, parents should name their children.

    They are real human beings that existed. Millions of souls do not have a name.
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:b8ed8c1b-259a-442a-9a99-d96fe23151b0">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]Actually, its not. The idea of a "name" is very important. We call upon saints names, God knows our names, and honors the name that our earthly parents gave us. We take on saint names at sacraments. When a woman confesses an abortion, many priests ask her to name their deceased children. This is the first step to healing for them (as they do this in healing retreats for those involved in abortions too). Also, when one miscarries, parents should name their children. They are real human beings that existed. Millions of souls do not have a name.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I seriously doubt this as I had one miscarriage and one ectopic pregnancy.  There were no priests around trying to name the miscarried embyos..  And  I was at at a Catholic hospital.  The ectopic requred serious sugery, that was ages ago, and no one came to bless or name the tissues they removed.

    I'm starting to think you're just a bit BSC.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:14e66a16-cb1f-4e21-af8c-8aa17e18c1a3">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : I seriously doubt this as I had one miscarriage and one ectopic pregnancy.  There were no priests around trying to name the miscarried embyos..  And  I was at at a Catholic hospital.  The ectopic requred serious sugery, that was ages ago, and no one came to bless or name the tissues they removed. I'm starting to think you're just a bit BSC.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    You can doubt me all you want. Makes no difference to me.

    But this is seriously what the first step in healing is. I work for the church, am getting certified in Theology of the body, and am very involved in healing ministry and pro-life work. It's a very well known "practice". But it can be a very private one. THe priests don't name your children, you do. Its not their job.
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    question:

    I checked your bio and you have no wedding date and no name of FI or husband.  You are not a mom or even a mother in law invloled in wedding planning.  Not a bridal party member or even a groom.

    Your purpose on this board is ____?
  • cc+mmcc+mm member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Posts like this this are the reason that I rarely. if ever, visit this board. We are getting married in a Catholic Church, I attended Catholic School for 12 years, and I consider myself a practicing Catholic.  So, this board should be a great resource, however every time I open a post it is judgmental. 
    Have any of you been told that you can not conceive naturally? That it might be difficult? Have you been in that situation? Well as someone who has already had a major surgery for endometriosis and is facing at least one more, and has heard that it will be difficult, if not impossible to conceive on my own, I will tell you with all honesty that I would and will use IVF if needed. I don't want your prayers, or your judgement, and I hope that you never have to face the road I am facing. The last time I came to this board, I saw a post on the of bcp to treat the symptoms of endo and many of the responses to the the OP were again negative and judgmental. Some going as far as to say that even if her priest supported her use of bcp for this medicinal purpose, that it was a sin and she should suffer. And again, all I have to say is, I hope you never have to face that situation.
    Save your prayers, my relationship with God is just that, between me and my God. This board seems full of people who want to judge. I hope you all realize that there isn't a scoreboard and you don't earn heaven points for making others feel bad and judging. 
  • tldhtldh member
    2500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:ef1a5862-507b-4a7c-a6ee-a721c8a9d92a">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]Posts like this this are the reason that I rarely. if ever, visit this board. We are getting married in a Catholic Church, I attended Catholic School for 12 years, and I consider myself a practicing Catholic.  So, this board should be a great resource, however every time I open a post it is judgmental.  Have any of you been told that you can not conceive naturally? That it might be difficult? Have you been in that situation? Well as someone who has already had a major surgery for endometriosis and is facing at least one more, and has heard that it will be difficult, if not impossible to conceive on my own, I will tell you with all honesty that I would and will use IVF if needed. I don't want your prayers, or your judgement, and I hope that you never have to face the road I am facing. The last time I came to this board, I saw a post on the of bcp to treat the symptoms of endo and many of the responses to the the OP were again negative and judgmental. Some going as far as to say that even if her priest supported her use of bcp for this medicinal purpose, that it was a sin and she should suffer. And again, all I have to say is, I hope you never have to face that situation. Save your prayers, my relationship with God is just that, between me and my God. This board seems full of people who want to judge. I hope you all realize that there isn't a scoreboard and you don't earn heaven points for making others feel bad and judging. 
    Posted by cc+mm[/QUOTE]

    GL cc+mm. 

    I lurk here occasionally and only very rarely post.  I have to shake my head a lot because the parish I grew up in taught us to question absolutely everything and never take something anyone, especially the church, says as gospel truth.  (please, no prayers for the bad pun).  That's why I think the argument that the church says it so it must be followed and your own personal belief doesn't matter is a total cop out usually said by people who are not used to thinking for themselves.

    The other rule we were taught is that only God gets to judge us because only God knows what is in our hearts.

    The ones I feel truly sorry for on this board are the ones who are not raised Catholic and come here with questions.  I sometimes wonder if they realize that only a very small percentage of Catholics are this judgmental.  Hell, not even the meanest nun in my twelve years of Catholic education was as judgmental as some of these women.
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  • ManwaithielManwaithiel member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I'm completely disgusted. With several things.

    One, I have a father who did not create me in the "marital embrace" (whatever the hell that means) as it were. Does that make him less my father? Does it make my "father" who beat my mother and almost killed my brother more my father because he delivered the chromosome that created me by having sex with my mother? I never talk about it this graphically, but the way you guys are going around saying sex should always equals babies and that's the only way you can be a true parent is grotesque. "Chromosome man" is NOT my father. He never will be. My father is a wonderful, loving man, who takes care of his family rather than destroy it.

    Two, what the HECK is wrong with IVF? How are the embryos that don't survive any different than a natural miscarriage? Other than the fact that it just "happens". I don't agree with abortion, but I have absolutely not issue with IVF. I think it's totally unacceptable to kill a baby just because you screwed up and slept with someone unless there is some actual medical reason (like the mother is going to die). But I see nothing wrong with a couple trying to conceive.

    By the bye, adoption is expensive.

    Ugh. I want to throw up.
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  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:316850f5-6022-4635-8985-4a5e050a39d9">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]I'm completely disgusted. With several things. One, I have a father who did not create me in the "marital embrace" (whatever the hell that means) [/QUOTE]
    It means sex. It means, not created in a test tube.

    [QUOTE] Does that make him less my father? Does it make my "father" who beat my mother and almost killed my brother more my father because he delivered the chromosome that created me by having sex with my mother? I never talk about it this graphically, but the way you guys are going around saying sex should always equals babies and that's the only way you can be a true parent is grotesque.[/QUOTE]

    No one said that. Yes, sex should be open to life, but there are things about sex that are good that don't have to do with the babies. And I think everyone on here is in agreement that if possible, adoption is a good thing. So how you got "the only way you can be a true parent" is beyond me.

    [QUOTE] "Chromosome man" is NOT my father. He never will be. My father is a wonderful, loving man, who takes care of his family rather than destroy it. [/QUOTE]
    Again, no one said this. No one said that a biological father must be the only father, or anything like that. I'm very sorry about your biological father, and I am glad that you do have a wonderful, true father in the sense of the word father. And I'm honestly not trying to be patronizing or anything (just in case "I'm sorry" is seen as horrible as "I'll pray for you" by anyone). Hey, lots of us have crappy stories about our parents, our upbringing, other aspects of our lives, or have friends/relatives who do. We understand that a father is not necessarily the person who provided half the genes for a lot of people.

    [QUOTE]Two, what the HECK is wrong with IVF? How are the embryos that don't survive any different than a natural miscarriage? Other than the fact that it just "happens".[/QUOTE]
    This. The fact that it just "happens." Now, I'm not well-versed enough in IVF to know whether you're referring to embryos that are created and then discarded because the couple does not want them, or embryos that just do not implant in the uterus. As for the former, I think its clear. Throwing embryos (humans) away and having them naturally miscarry is the same as the difference between being murdered and dying from cancer. As for the latter, you're creating a situation where it is likely the person will not survive (i.e. implant and be carried to term. If I'm reading the statistice right its less than half, maybe even less than 25%).

     [QUOTE]I don't agree with abortion, but I have absolutely not issue with IVF.[/QUOTE] Then, at what point do you believe the baby/embryo becomes a human being? Catholics believe it happens at conception. This would mean that all of those 17 embryos are human beings, and most will not survive just as the aborted baby does not survive.

    I'm truly sorry you are so offended. Yes, this is a very sensitive subject and people need to be careful. But there also needs to be a point where we can discuss our beliefs without being terrified of offending every sensitive person who comes by. And I think that most of the first posters did not cross the line.

    (edited to fix quote tags)
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  • ManwaithielManwaithiel member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I think the point of difference is that the couple is trying to CREATE  human being not destroy it. What's so hard about that difference? The couple has not already created something and then is willing to kill it. The couple cannot create a baby and therefore they are trying other ways. The embryos are not implanted because they usually DIE or are going to die therefore making implantation kind of pointless, don't you think? Lots of pregnancies are miscarried. Some before a woman even knows she's pregnant. I'm sure several women have miscarried and did not realize it. It just happens because sometimes the baby does not survive. It's in such a fragile state. That's why people usually don't go around announcing pregnancies till after the first trimester b/c the chance for miscarriage is pretty high. It's no different with IVF. They miscarried. The embroys they created didn't make it. Sticking a dead embryo in a womb is pretty freaking stupid.

    And if you're going to talk about something so sensitive, be ready for some heated/emotional responses. If YOU can't handle it, then you have no business talking about it. Deal with some of the reactions you're going to get, or go talk about something else that doesn't make you have to feel like you're dealing with too many emotions. Geeze.
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  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:0ebc1d6c-92c0-404c-9197-0211eedb4436">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : GL cc+mm.  The ones I feel truly sorry for on this board are the ones who are not raised Catholic and come here with questions.  I sometimes wonder if they realize that only a very small percentage of Catholics are this judgmental.  Hell, not even the meanest nun in my twelve years of Catholic education was as judgmental as some of these women.
    Posted by tldh[/QUOTE] (and to others who posted similarly)

    Really? I found these all on page 1.

    A thread where the OP is living with FI and worried about the priest's reaction. Comments were nothing but supportive, though some did point out the church's teaching, the only "that would be sinful!" comment was referring to if the couple lied about it:
    <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-1" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-1</a>

    Situation where OP was concerned that her non-Catholic FI was married before and it might be a problem. Comments were supportive and helpful:
    <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice</a>

    OP is not Catholic, wondering what to expect. Comments are kind and helpful:
    <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-sure-expect" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-sure-expect</a>

    OP raised Catholic but not practicing. Comments are kind and helpful:
    <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-wedding-questions" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-wedding-questions</a>

    OP has a child already and is not sure if that is ok. Comments are kind and helpful:
    <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_hmmmi-wonder-this-will-play-out" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_hmmmi-wonder-this-will-play-out</a>

    And most of the other posts on here are about wedding program wording, music choices, timing of ceremony, etc.

    Maybe someone or two on here comes across (or even is!) judgmental. But I don't understand how you can make a broad statement about this whole board.
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  • Hope61Hope61 member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:264ceda9-2ceb-451e-ac1f-60b4e267d4f3">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think the point of difference is that the couple is trying to CREATE  human being not destroy it. What's so hard about that difference? The couple has not already created something and then is willing to kill it. The couple cannot create a baby and therefore they are trying other ways. The embryos are not implanted because they usually DIE or are going to die therefore making implantation kind of pointless, don't you think? [/QUOTE]
    Yes. So the problem here is that the couple/scientist created these embryos (as opposed to the couple/God, although, before I get jumped on for this, God allows it so the the children are still children of God) and that most if not all of these embryos WILL die. This is vastly different from x% of natural pregnancies result in miscarriage. If I ever get pregnant naturally, it will be by God's design and if the baby dies in utero, it will also be by God's design.

    [QUOTE]The embroys they created didn't make it. Sticking a dead embryo in a womb is pretty freaking stupid. [/QUOTE] um... no one suggested that.

    [QUOTE]And if you're going to talk about something so sensitive, be ready for some heated/emotional responses. If YOU can't handle it, then you have no business talking about it. Deal with some of the reactions you're going to get, or go talk about something else that doesn't make you have to feel like you're dealing with too many emotions. Geeze.
    Posted by Manwaithiel[/QUOTE]
    Yes, I know this brings up heated/emotional responses. That doesn't give people a right to go around calling ALL of us judgmental, writing sarcastic responses, bashing our Church, calling us a "rat pack". I think we have been dealing with these. Yes, with some over-emotional and rude responses on both sides, but with a lot of calm and well-thought-out responses as well.
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  • tldhtldh member
    2500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:583c57bd-94b7-4bc3-9b08-8ac264bb6f68">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : (and to others who posted similarly) Really? I found these all on page 1. A thread where the OP is living with FI and worried about the priest's reaction. Comments were nothing but supportive, though some did point out the church's teaching, the only "that would be sinful!" comment was referring to if the couple lied about it: <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-1" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_living-together-1</a> Situation where OP was concerned that her non-Catholic FI was married before and it might be a problem. Comments were supportive and helpful: <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_need-advice</a> OP is not Catholic, wondering what to expect. Comments are kind and helpful: <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-sure-expect" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_not-sure-expect</a> OP raised Catholic but not practicing. Comments are kind and helpful: <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-wedding-questions" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-wedding-questions</a> OP has a child already and is not sure if that is ok. Comments are kind and helpful: <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_hmmmi-wonder-this-will-play-out" rel="nofollow">http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_hmmmi-wonder-this-will-play-out</a> And most of the other posts on here are about wedding program wording, music choices, timing of ceremony, etc. Maybe someone or two on here comes across (or even is!) judgmental. But I don't understand how you can make a broad statement about this whole board.
    Posted by KatieAnne18[/QUOTE]

    I'm not just talking about this thread,  This is hardly the first one that set me off.
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  • tldhtldh member
    2500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_heaviness-heart?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:83f0b781-246e-46cb-a63b-190591e71f21Post:e944e52d-04ec-44cf-9911-bb9b21778f1c">Re: Heaviness in my heart</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Heaviness in my heart : Yes. <strong>So the problem here is that the couple/scientist created these embryos</strong> (as opposed to the couple/God, although, before I get jumped on for this, <strong>God allows it so the the children are still children of God</strong>) and that most if not all of these embryos WILL die. This is vastly different from x% of natural pregnancies result in miscarriage. If I ever get pregnant naturally, it will be by God's design and if the baby dies in utero, it will also be by God's design. um... no one suggested that. Yes, I know this brings up heated/emotional responses. That doesn't give people a right to go around calling ALL of us judgmental, writing sarcastic responses, bashing our Church, calling us a "rat pack". I think we have been dealing with these. Yes, with some over-emotional and rude responses on both sides, but with a lot of calm and well-thought-out responses as well.
    Posted by KatieAnne18[/QUOTE]


    This isn't at all arrogant, is it?  How do you know the reason God doesn't stop it?  Unless you have a direct line to Him, you really shouldn't speak on His behalf like this.
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