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Photography edits

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Re: Photography edits

  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    @PDKH  All I am saying is that she will have to consult with her photographer--which may include paying a fee, or get written permission. That is what SHE has to do. And I have a respectable photographer who has given me expressed permission to do as I wish with the images. I also talked to my videographer and he said he had no problem with me using the footage he will film to let me edit my own video from it. So all I am saying is that each person may have different policies and that SHE will have to figure that out on her own. 

    I called you all haters because of THE WAY you guys were speaking to her and the tone. If you guys had just advised her without all of the extra comments, then that would be one thing. But the overall tone of TK's forums are very aggressive. I called you a DB b/c the extra "mermaid" comment was unnecessary...and I think if you were honest with yourself, you can admit you did it to be smarmy and catty. Let's be real. There is a way to speak to people with dignity and respect...you don't have to belittle her ideas and tell her what to do to give her advice. I think you are an intelligent person, and you know that you all were not exactly being nice in the way you were talking to her.  
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    edited June 2013
    Divinewords said:

    @PDKH  All I am saying is that she will have to consult with her photographer--which may include paying a fee, or get written permission. That is what SHE has to do. And I have a respectable photographer who has given me expressed permission to do as I wish with the images. I also talked to my videographer and he said he had no problem with me using the footage he will film to let me edit my own video from it. So all I am saying is that each person may have different policies and that SHE will have to figure that out on her own. 

    I called you all haters because of THE WAY you guys were speaking to her and the tone. If you guys had just advised her without all of the extra comments, then that would be one thing. But the overall tone of TK's forums are very aggressive. I called you a DB b/c the extra "mermaid" comment was unnecessary...and I think if you were honest with yourself, you can admit you did it to be smarmy and catty. Let's be real. There is a way to speak to people with dignity and respect...you don't have to belittle her ideas and tell her what to do to give her advice. I think you are an intelligent person, and you know that you all were not exactly being nice in the way you were talking to her.  

    Calling people haters or douche bags is soooooo dignified and respectful. You win.

    Also, as a professional photographer, get your "expressed" permission in writing. Words means nothing. Have it put in your contract. Cover your ass.

    ETA: I didn't belittle her idea either. I told her it might look a little odd when it was finished and mentioned her contract. It didn't get catty until she got upset with us for not liking her idea.
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  • manateehuggermanateehugger member
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    tarratall said:
    Yeah, I recommended that she love her wedding as it was. And to not waste her money. 

    How dare I be so catty?! I must be a hater. 
    I have her sound advice about why it's not the best idea, PMed her a colleague's contact info if she wants to go ahead and has legal clearance, AND photoshopped Addie's wedding picture with a muppet overlord in less than 5 minutes. I don't even know where I fit into this scenario. Am I a helpful hater?
    No @Tarratall, you gave your personal and professional opinion. That's not what OP was looking for. She just wanted a recommendation, damn it. Can't you stay on topic?!

    You're a douchebag hater obviously. 
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    soontobehanby That is a perfectly fine recommendation. And see...you didn't have to make a wise ass remark to get your point across. 

    PDKH I think you need to rethink what your idea of "logic" is. In fact, you just committed a logical fallacy called "The weak analogy". Here's the definition:

    Definition: Many arguments rely on an analogy between two or more objects, ideas, or situations. If the two things that are being compared aren’t really alike in the relevant respects, the analogy is a weak one, and the argument that relies on it commits the fallacy of weak analogy. 

    Stealing a car and wanting to alter an image (which she could do legally with the permission of her photographer) are not the same. Not in the least. Period. 

    I've already called you out on 2 very weak arguments and blatant logical fallacies. If you want to argue, argue fairly in a way that's logical. 
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    Divinewords said:

    soontobehanby That is a perfectly fine recommendation. And see...you didn't have to make a wise ass remark to get your point across. 


    PDKH I think you need to rethink what your idea of "logic" is. In fact, you just committed a logical fallacy called "The weak analogy". Here's the definition:

    Definition: Many arguments rely on an analogy between two or more objects, ideas, or situations. If the two things that are being compared aren’t really alike in the relevant respects, the analogy is a weak one, and the argument that relies on it commits the fallacy of weak analogy. 

    Stealing a car and wanting to alter an image (which she could do legally with the permission of her photographer) are not the same. Not in the least. Period. 

    I've already called you out on 2 very weak arguments and blatant logical fallacies. If you want to argue, argue fairly in a way that's logical. 
    The analogy is weak but I believe the logic is still there. We aren't going to give a recommendation for something we don't believe in.
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    soontobehanby If you didn't belittle her ideas, and you gave her sound advice without being snarky, then that comment did not apply to you; so why are you defending others who went out of their way to be rude to her? And when I confronted him about his comments--and the fact that he made those comments to be rude and obnoxious, he didn't deny it, he turned it back on me, and then you jumped in to cheer-lead and defend him. Don't make sideline comments coupled with weak logically fallacious arguments to justify your actions. I'll admit it...me calling him a DB was not meant to be nice. It was calling out his behavior. 

    And I don't think you understand what "Express Permission" is. 

    FORMAL very clear, so that there can be no mistake about what is intended
    express permission/consent: You must not leave this house without my express permission.


    I think that most people would agree the best way to have a formal agreement is to have it written down. (<--not giving legal advice, btw...) Again--this is something she will have to figure out with her photographer...and if it means that much to her where she wants to pay for copyright, then that's on her!! 
    soontobehanby said: 
    Calling people haters or douche bags is soooooo dignified and respectful. You win. Also, as a professional photographer, get your "expressed" permission in writing. Words means nothing. Have it put in your contract. Cover your ass. ETA: I didn't belittle her idea either. I told her it might look a little odd when it was finished and mentioned her contract. It didn't get catty until she got upset with us for not liking her idea.
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    soontobehanby  The analogy was a logical fallacy....that is the exact opposite of using logic. Sorry.
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    tarratall I was speaking of PDKH...however, I shouldn't have assumed that this person is male or female...
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    I jumped in because 1. I am an adult and can make my own decisions. 2. I feel like the rude person here is you, therefore I am on the side I believe to be correct.

    And I know what you meant, but thank you for belittling me with that definition. So sweet of you, but I also have access to google and could have done that myself if I didn't know what you meant. I was trying to be kind to you and advise you to get it in writing.
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    Divinewords said:

    soontobehanby  The analogy was a logical fallacy....that is the exact opposite of using logic. Sorry.

    It was an analogy! It served its purpose! Perfect analogy? Maybe not, but extreme enough to get the point across.

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  • manateehuggermanateehugger member
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    @Divinewords I wasn't snarky to the OP at all. I literally said, "You should love your wedding for what it was" and that photoshopping often goes poorly. How is that snarky?

    And your copying and pasting does nothing to negate the fact that you clearly don't understand intellectual property law and contract law. You're arguing about my arguments instead of getting to the point. 

    And yeah, I'm not a dude. 
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    soontobehanby

    1) She is an adult person who also can make her own decisions on what is appropriate for her wedding pictures. 2) I never claimed to not be rude. The rudeness that I expressed to PDKH was reciprocal for the rude comment he made to me. Is it right or justified, absolutely not; however, unlike the people on this forum, I can admit when I am doing something to be rude. 3) I too have access to google in order to find out what types of "express consent" I need. I have a pile of mutually discussed and signed contracts from my wedding vendors. So I will say the same thing you said to me regarding that. 

    tarratall The analogy was logically fallacious and served no purpose other than someone fishing for an argument when they had none. A better argument would be:

    Someone rents a car. In their contract, it states that X amount of miles are included with the rental. That person would like to drive the car out of town, so they call the car company and then they change the terms of their agreement and pay a fee in order to adjust the terms of their rental. 

    That is a logical analogy when compared to getting permission to use an image. Not hijacking a car and then asking people what's the best chop-shop. This is the problem-- people can't tell the difference between a weak and invalid argument from a logical one.
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    @PDKH and you can google! Bravo!!
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    Divinewords said:

    soontobehanby


    1) She is an adult person who also can make her own decisions on what is appropriate for her wedding pictures. 2) I never claimed to not be rude. The rudeness that I expressed to PDKH was reciprocal for the rude comment he made to me. Is it right or justified, absolutely not; however, unlike the people on this forum, I can admit when I am doing something to be rude. 3) I too have access to google in order to find out what types of "express consent" I need. I have a pile of mutually discussed and signed contracts from my wedding vendors. So I will say the same thing you said to me regarding that. 

    tarratall The analogy was logically fallacious and served no purpose other than someone fishing for an argument when they had none. A better argument would be:

    Someone rents a car. In their contract, it states that X amount of miles are included with the rental. That person would like to drive the car out of town, so they call the car company and then they change the terms of their agreement and pay a fee in order to adjust the terms of their rental. 

    That is a logical analogy when compared to getting permission to use an image. Not hijacking a car and then asking people what's the best chop-shop. This is the problem-- people can't tell the difference between a weak and invalid argument from a
    logical one.
    I feel like the problem had nothing to do with analogies or fallacies since I don't really give a shit. The problem I have is when people don't pay attention to their contracts. As a photographer, I work so hard on my images and when someone tries to change it, it is offensive and rude. With my contracts, it is also illegal. If your photographer has told you that you may edit your own pictures, while I find that unbelievable, then that is cool. If it in contractually sound, great.

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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    There is also a difference between expressed content and expressed written content. Someone can't leave the house without expressed content, I am sure they don't get it in writing first.
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    PDKH a hyperbole is not an argument. It's an exaggerated story. Calling a hyperbole a logical argument is like calling a parable a history lesson. 

    Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή hyperbolē, "exaggeration") is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

    Creating a strong impression with a made up story is not logic. Maybe you should look up "Rhetorical"--coming from rhetoric--which is "the undue use of exaggeration". Undue meaning unnecessary. Ahh...good or rhetoric. The tool of the ministers and politicians. 
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    You really are a peach, aren't you?
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    PDKH LOL...still can't admit that most of your arguments are made up and fallacious...Don't make snarky comments and then get pissed when someone pulls your card. We've already addressed the Intellectual Property Law. I have said TIME AND TIME AND TIME again she needs to check her contract and contact her photographer. I've said that at least 3-4 times in this thread...but that is not enough for you...so you go and say I was giving her legal advice...when AGAIN I said she needs to consult her contract and her photographer. You then you use a weak analogy comparing this woman to a car jacker. When I call you out on that, you start in with more weak arguments. 

    And also, I never called you ALL haters. If you weren't making hateful comments, then that didn't apply to you. That comment was directed to the other people in the thread who were being mean, posting unnecessary comments and pictures, just to be mean to her. In all of this, you guys are defending yourselves, saying "I didn't say anything mean to her"...well, then that comment wasn't directed at you. 

    So again, how is it violating intellectual property law if I say that she needs to consult with her contract and her photographer? And that each photographer is going to have different policies. That is exactly WHY you have contracts. Because everyone's terms are different. And if she wants to alter the image, she needs to consult her photographer.
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    soontobehanby said:
    You really are a peach, aren't you?
    Nope...I'm not a peach. I'm a human. :)
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    edited June 2013
    Divinewords said:
    tarratall I was speaking of PDKH...however, I shouldn't have assumed that this person is male or female...
    @PDKH  ^^^^^^We've already addressed my error in guessing your gender. Get over it. 

    Address this comment:  I don't think OP wants to look like a mermaid on her wedding day.  

    What was the purpose of this comment? To be a smart ass? Hyperbole? To make a logical argument? To make a fallacious argument? You added that in as an extra zinger trying to be a smart ass...and when I called you out on it, you got mad. Boo...Hoo...You do something because you thought it was cute to be rude, and when someone is rude back to you, you get pissed. If you weren't being hateful, I wasn't addressing you with the hater comment...so basically you took something personal that wasn't directed at you, and then you got mad and made a rude comment...period. Just admit that. And also admit that you haven't made one logical argument since the beginning of this conversation. What's worse is you have backers on this thread defending the illogical nature of your arguments, even though you are fundamentally wrong. 

    My whole point in checking out this thread was to get a feel for this community and nearly every single thread I've visited has been like this. This forum goes on attack mode all the time. And since I've got nothing better to do until later on, I decided to have a little fun conversing with you guys...But honestly, I'm bored of this conversation. But maybe I'll switch my internet name to "Peaches" now...have a good night arguing with other people on The Knot. 
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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    Divinewords said:

    PDKH LOL...still can't admit that most of your arguments are made up and fallacious...Don't make snarky comments and then get pissed when someone pulls your card. We've already addressed the Intellectual Property Law. I have said TIME AND TIME AND TIME again she needs to check her contract and contact her photographer. I've said that at least 3-4 times in this thread...but that is not enough for you...so you go and say I was giving her legal advice...when AGAIN I said she needs to consult her contract and her photographer. You then you use a weak analogy comparing this woman to a car jacker. When I call you out on that, you start in with more weak arguments. 

    And also, I never called you ALL haters. If you weren't making hateful comments, then that didn't apply to you. That comment was directed to the other people in the thread who were being mean, posting unnecessary comments and pictures, just to be mean to her. In all of this, you guys are defending yourselves, saying "I didn't say anything mean to her"...well, then that comment wasn't directed at you. 

    So again, how is it violating intellectual property law if I say that she needs to consult with her contract and her photographer? And that each photographer is going to have different policies. That is exactly WHY you have contracts. Because everyone's terms are different. And if she wants to alter the image, she needs to consult her photographer.

    It's not like she is sitting at home going "oh no! They figured out it was a fallacy! What do I do?! Deny deny deny!" She admitted it was an exaggeration, that was even the point of her whole comment in the first place.

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  • soontobehanbysoontobehanby member
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    Divinewords said:


    Divinewords said:


    Divinewords said:

    tarratall I was speaking of PDKH...however, I shouldn't have assumed that this person is male or female...

    @PDKH  ^^^^^^We've already addressed my error in guessing your gender. Get over it. 
    You did it twice. So she corrected you, the first time wasn't enough. An apology maybe?
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    PDKH   PDKH...I am so sorry that I wrote "he". Again, I shouldn't have assumed your gender. 

    soontobehanby
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    @PDKH I don't sleep with a dictionary...that seems like it might be uncomfortable. I like to curl up with my <3 at night. Dictionaries don't cuddle well, I assume. Don't tell me about what I won't admit! You can't even admit when you made illogical arguments. LMAO...ain't that the pot calling the kettle metal. You told me I was 1) Giving her legal advice (I was not). You never admitted to the fact that you strawman argued me, because I don't think her request is that ridiculous. She obviously doesn't like the background of an important photo. It's not like she's taking the photo and burning it, away from existence. She's trying to find a way to take one part of the image and not have it ruined by a bad background. People do this all the time. If they didn't, Photoshop would have never been created...The analogy you made was not to show my ridiculousness--it was made to prove your point, and when you failed, you turned it back on me. I've admitted to everything that I did--I called you a DB because you made a smart aleck remark. I admitted to that. I admitted it wasn't nice--because it wasn't meant to be. I admitted I mistakenly called you "him" instead "she". I admitted that. You have yet to admit any of your arguments had any errors, even though I have clearly pointed out that they were erroneous. Don't ask me to do something you won't do yourself. I don't have to agree with you--but you DO have to make logical arguments. 
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  • manateehuggermanateehugger member
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    edited June 2013
    svinewords said:
    @PDKH I don't sleep with a dictionary...that seems like it might be uncomfortable. I like to curl up with my <3 at night. Dictionaries don't cuddle well, I assume. Don't tell me about what I won't admit! You can't even admit when you made illogical arguments. LMAO...ain't that the pot calling the kettle metal. You told me I was 1) Giving her legal advice (I was not). You never admitted to the fact that you strawman argued me, because I don't think her request is that ridiculous. She obviously doesn't like the background of an important photo. It's not like she's taking the photo and burning it, away from existence. She's trying to find a way to take one part of the image and not have it ruined by a bad background. People do this all the time. If they didn't, Photoshop would have never been created...The analogy you made was not to show my ridiculousness--it was made to prove your point, and when you failed, you turned it back on me. I've admitted to everything that I did--I called you a DB because you made a smart aleck remark. I admitted to that. I admitted it wasn't nice--because it wasn't meant to be. I admitted I mistakenly called you "him" instead "she". I admitted that. You have yet to admit any of your arguments had any errors, even though I have clearly pointed out that they were erroneous. Don't ask me to do something you won't do yourself. I don't have to agree with you--but you DO have to make logical arguments. 
    If the photos are copyrighted (which 99.9999% of professional photographers copyright all of their work), the bolded is illegal. People doing it all the time doesn't make it any less illegal. 

    That is my point. 

    ETA: Do you have a formal logical argument for why people performing an act all the time exempts that act from being a violation of federal law?

    Oh, and calling me a douchebag is a violation of The Knot's Terms of Service.
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    PDKH And I 100% agree with that...and I said she will have to CONSULT HER CONTRACT and HER PHOTOGRAPHER. So if we both agree on that (which I swear I have said about 5 or 6 times now), why are you arguing with a point that we both agree is fact. I am an artist. I have spent about 10 or more years of my life as a contract artist. I have written poetry books. I have had to get copyrights. I have also had my work stolen and used without my permission. I fully understand and agree with copyright laws.

    Don't confuse the issue....The area you bolded was not talking about or justifying the stealing of another person's intellectual property. It was addressing the fact that she wants to alter the photo in the first place. Perhaps that is where you are confused on my stance. I'm sure she loved her wedding just as it occurred...but sometimes there are things in photos that you don't want there--and that is why Photoshop is there--to alter photos. I am NOT in any way addressing the legality of her doing so without her Photographer's permission. I am talking about the concept--which is what most people were attacking. It doesn't matter why she wanted the photo altered. She wanted it altered. She was advised to consult with her contract and photographer before altering the photo. So exactly what is your argument here?

    I've said SO MANY TIMES on this thread that she needs to consult with her photographer and see if it's ok, or amend the contract, or pay a copyright fee. I have said that. So why are you arguing with me on that point? Please, before you reply, go take a look at this thread and how many times I've agreed with your point....
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  • DivinewordsDivinewords member
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    PDKH Seriously? Do you think I am trying to justify the stealing of someone else's work. I NEVER SAID IT WAS RIGHT OR LEGAL TO DO THAT. Period. Stop arguing a point I am not making! And if you are that offended, go ahead and report me. 

    You simply do not understand I am not making the point you are arguing. I don't know what else to say to you other than: The point you are arguing is one I am not making. So please stop trying to put that argument on me. 
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