Le Sigh

doeydo · August 2014

@SmileDamnit Yeesh, that does sound like me.

theartistformerlyknownas · August 2014

We just love you Doey. We want you to think as highly of yourself as we do of you. We want you to have HAPPINESS. Security. Confidence in yourself and your choices. We want you to feel valued and respected. Not as someone performing a service or a chore, but as someone who is inherently worthy of these things.

SmileDamnit · August 2014

doeydo said:

@SmileDamnit Yeesh, that does sound like me.

Okay, so there are some important steps you can take for YOUR well being…

1. Find a personal therapist that is different from your couples therapist, one who preferably with experience in codependent behavior.

2. Research & learn about codependency for yourself. Some hopefully helpful links…

http://www.goodtherapy.org/therapy-for-codependency.html#

http://coda.org

http://www.whatiscodependency.com

Sugargirl1019 · August 2014

Doey, let's take our first step. Move out. You will be in a relationship, you can pay the rent, but I think you need space and he needs space.

I know you worry about what he will do. But that's such a flaw in his character! If he has more time to himself, will he shape up to get you back? Or will he downward spiral? You have to let happen what happens. You are not throwing him out on the streets, starving him, or handing him drugs and telling him to forget about life. Its his choice.

His medical condition to fail at life is not a reason you need to tie yourself to him. Be a friend to him, but I think all romance is out of this.

What would he say if you said "let's have an open relationship. Let's see other people." Because he is seeing other people. Does he care if you do?

sophhabobopha · August 2014

Thinking about you today, Doey!

doeydo · August 2014

Sugargirl1019 said:

Doey, let's take our first step. Move out. You will be in a relationship, you can pay the rent, but I think you need space and he needs space. I know you worry about what he will do. But that's such a flaw in his character! If he has more time to himself, will he shape up to get you back? Or will he downward spiral? You have to let happen what happens. You are not throwing him out on the streets, starving him, or handing him drugs and telling him to forget about life. Its his choice. His medical condition to fail at life is not a reason you need to tie yourself to him. Be a friend to him, but I think all romance is out of this. What would he say if you said "let's have an open relationship. Let's see other people." Because he is seeing other people. Does he care if you do?

I actually did ask him something like that, thinking maybe that would be a possible solution (if we tried it and it worked for us). He was very against it because he said it would be like "giving him permission" to engage in his addictive sexual behaviour. He said that his addict-mind would use that as a rationalization and it would get worse.
I guess I don't really understand, though, because I thought addicts were supposed to quit engaging in their addiction for themselves first and not for anyone else. So, for example, if I wasn't in the picture, it would be smart for him to not go on sex chats and what not just for his own well being.

doeydo · August 2014

Tonight, I tried putting nanny software on the cell phone, and he didn't like any of the apps (we were looking through them together) because most of them either said they would/could access the storage, manage networks, or something else. Then he seemed irritated and said that we should just leave the phone alone. I said I would feel a lot more comfortable with one installed. Then, he said "how would that help you regain your trust?". "Um, well we just put one on your lap top the other day and our therapist said that, at least at the time being, this can be a useful tool for us". He said that we could compromise and when he is using it and I can ask for it and he'll just hand it over. So, I thought that he could exit out of whatever it is quickly before handing it to me and also, I am not going to be there all the time (ie. he takes it with him to work or when I am sleeping) and he said I could take the phone in the bedroom with me when I sleep (I usually go to bed earlier than him). So, ATM I am just thinking that he is trying to wiggle his way so that he can access shit on the phone and not be "spied on".

But I talked to my mom shortly today. We might talk more tomorrow (she goes back to work on Friday and will be on for a few days in a row again and never has time to do anything as she basically comes home and sleeps then gets up and works). Right now, she basically just knows that we are having issues and I asked if I could come to her place if I needed to, initially she said yes of course. Then, she was like "OMG, your cats would come, too. Five cats in my apartment? Oi" (I have two, she has three). We had five (six at one time) in that apartment for three or four years when I lived with her there, it was fine except for the few that don't get along. Not like we are cat hoarders, they are spoiled and it is a spacious apartment she has. Anyways, I guess when I talk to her again I'll see what she says about me possibly staying at her place (with the cats) and everything.

LadyMillil · August 2014

I think talking to your mom about staying with her is a great first step! Taking some space from him should help you figure things out.

afox007 · August 2014

doeydo said:

Tonight, I tried putting nanny software on the cell phone, and he didn't like any of the apps (we were looking through them together) because most of them either said they would/could access the storage, manage networks, or something else. Then he seemed irritated and said that we should just leave the phone alone. I said I would feel a lot more comfortable with one installed. Then, he said "how would that help you regain your trust?". "Um, well we just put one on your lap top the other day and our therapist said that, at least at the time being, this can be a useful tool for us". He said that we could compromise and when he is using it and I can ask for it and he'll just hand it over. So, I thought that he could exit out of whatever it is quickly before handing it to me and also, I am not going to be there all the time (ie. he takes it with him to work or when I am sleeping) and he said I could take the phone in the bedroom with me when I sleep (I usually go to bed earlier than him). So, ATM I am just thinking that he is trying to wiggle his way so that he can access shit on the phone and not be "spied on".
But I talked to my mom shortly today. We might talk more tomorrow (she goes back to work on Friday and will be on for a few days in a row again and never has time to do anything as she basically comes home and sleeps then gets up and works). Right now, she basically just knows that we are having issues and I asked if I could come to her place if I needed to, initially she said yes of course. Then, she was like "OMG, your cats would come, too. Five cats in my apartment? Oi" (I have two, she has three). We had five (six at one time) in that apartment for three or four years when I lived with her there, it was fine except for the few that don't get along. Not like we are cat hoarders, they are spoiled and it is a spacious apartment she has. Anyways, I guess when I talk to her again I'll see what she says about me possibly staying at her place (with the cats) and everything.

SITB
FSS suggested the same thing when he overheard FI and I talking about installing something on his phone. I quickly noticed that the texts that showed up didn't make sense. Friends I knew he regularly text weren't there at all so I knew he deleted the whole thread. His browser history only showed a handful of items a day when I know he spent more time on it. Needless to say FI is installing software once we find a decent one, in the meantime FSS only gets his phone if he visits his mom.

If an 11 year is smart enough to delete things he didn't want us to see I'm sure you FI is as well. I also think having to download nanny software on your FI's phone is a bad sign; I understand the reasoning and it is a good solution in this situation, but it seems like you are a parent to him first and a SO last.

flyingfoxes · August 2014

As far as him not being able to keep the apartment: my cousin has pretty severe FASD, like mentally he's probably around 10-12, and he's 24. He qualified for disability housing from the government. Now he didn't want to do it because they put curfews on him, but that could be an option for your FI so that he doesn't end up homeless.

theartistformerlyknownas · August 2014

Doey I can never quote right from mobile, but I think your instincts in both posts are spot on. He's making excuses and looking for loopholes. He may not be in complete control of all his urges, but he knows exactly what he's doing to keep things just as he likes them. Manipulative and shady as fuck.

gladyscf · August 2014

Notice how he was all for the nanny software during the moment when you were upset and calling him on it? Notice now how a couple days have passed and you're actually moving forward and doing what was agreed on and he's back-peddling?

Prime example of him telling you EXACTLY what you want/need to hear in the moment to manipulate you into staying and now that the panic moment has passed, he's working around you to still continue doing what HE wants.

KatieinBkln · August 2014

I'm not sure where I stand on the "is he manipulative/is he sick" spectrum here. (Actually, I think the most likely thing here is that he is both sick and manipulative, but perhaps not deliberately so--he is manipulating you, but not out of malice, but rather out of an unhealthy way of dealing with things/being in the world, generally).

However, I don't even think this is your issue. At least, not your broader issue, which is: you are not in an equal relationship with this man. You are constantly put in the position of "taking care" of him, rather than loving him as an equal. Of course you resent the weight of it all; of course he resents feeling infantilized. Yes, he has some disabilities, but he is still a grown man and you are his fiancee, not his mother, not his caretaker, and not his social worker. Yet you've described yourself as taking on all three of these roles. Even if this were normal; even if it were healthy, when is there room for you to just be his fiancee? Where does that relationship fit in here?

I think it's easy to get bogged down in particulars here--how can you lock his phone, what are you going to do about your cats, etc. But the biggest question is: CAN this relationship ever be equal? Can he access other resources to be his mom/caretaker/social worker and give you the (deserved) freedom to just be his SO? Can you back away from the caregiving roles you've selflessly taken on without feeling guilty?

If you can, or believe you can work toward this goal, great! But if not, then I think you'll know what you need to do. Can you try asking this question at your next couples' session? "My goal is to be equal partners with FI, meaning I am not 'in charge' of him and I'm not expected to police him, counsel him in a professional capacity, or act as his parole officer. What steps can you recommend to get us there?" Right now it seems like your therapist is suggesting small steps within the framework that you've already given her, which is the framework where FI is the "child" and you are his "good influence/parent/moral police," but honestly that isn't working, and can never work long-term. So flip the script, tell her you're tired of this role, and ask for solutions that work in a different framework. Nanny software and separate bank accounts are just band-aids anyway; it's time to ask about surgery.

PrettyGirlLost · August 2014

KatieinBkln said:

I'm not sure where I stand on the "is he manipulative/is he sick" spectrum here. (Actually, I think the most likely thing here is that he is both sick and manipulative, but perhaps not deliberately so--he is manipulating you, but not out of malice, but rather out of an unhealthy way of dealing with things/being in the world, generally).

However, I don't even think this is your issue. At least, not your broader issue, which is: you are not in an equal relationship with this man. You are constantly put in the position of "taking care" of him, rather than loving him as an equal. Of course you resent the weight of it all; of course he resents feeling infantilized. Yes, he has some disabilities, but he is still a grown man and you are his fiancee, not his mother, not his caretaker, and not his social worker. Yet you've described yourself as taking on all three of these roles. Even if this were normal; even if it were healthy, when is there room for you to just be his fiancee? Where does that relationship fit in here?

I think it's easy to get bogged down in particulars here--how can you lock his phone, what are you going to do about your cats, etc. But the biggest question is: CAN this relationship ever be equal? Can he access other resources to be his mom/caretaker/social worker and give you the (deserved) freedom to just be his SO? Can you back away from the caregiving roles you've selflessly taken on without feeling guilty?

If you can, or believe you can work toward this goal, great! But if not, then I think you'll know what you need to do. Can you try asking this question at your next couples' session? "My goal is to be equal partners with FI, meaning I am not 'in charge' of him and I'm not expected to police him, counsel him in a professional capacity, or act as his parole officer. What steps can you recommend to get us there?" Right now it seems like your therapist is suggesting small steps within the framework that you've already given her, which is the framework where FI is the "child" and you are his "good influence/parent/moral police," but honestly that isn't working, and can never work long-term. So flip the script, tell her you're tired of this role, and ask for solutions that work in a different framework. Nanny software and separate bank accounts are just band-aids anyway; it's time to ask about surgery.

Rather than discussing these things with the couples therapist, I think you need to see one separately for yourself, and possibly one who specializes in working with people who are in relationships with the mentally disabled. I also think you might want to consider speaking to a person who specializes in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome to get an idea of which expectations for this relationship are realistic and which are not. These are things I think you need to explore on your own and not in front of your FI right now.

KatieinBkln · August 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

KatieinBkln said:

I'm not sure where I stand on the "is he manipulative/is he sick" spectrum here. (Actually, I think the most likely thing here is that he is both sick and manipulative, but perhaps not deliberately so--he is manipulating you, but not out of malice, but rather out of an unhealthy way of dealing with things/being in the world, generally).

However, I don't even think this is your issue. At least, not your broader issue, which is: you are not in an equal relationship with this man. You are constantly put in the position of "taking care" of him, rather than loving him as an equal. Of course you resent the weight of it all; of course he resents feeling infantilized. Yes, he has some disabilities, but he is still a grown man and you are his fiancee, not his mother, not his caretaker, and not his social worker. Yet you've described yourself as taking on all three of these roles. Even if this were normal; even if it were healthy, when is there room for you to just be his fiancee? Where does that relationship fit in here?

I think it's easy to get bogged down in particulars here--how can you lock his phone, what are you going to do about your cats, etc. But the biggest question is: CAN this relationship ever be equal? Can he access other resources to be his mom/caretaker/social worker and give you the (deserved) freedom to just be his SO? Can you back away from the caregiving roles you've selflessly taken on without feeling guilty?

If you can, or believe you can work toward this goal, great! But if not, then I think you'll know what you need to do. Can you try asking this question at your next couples' session? "My goal is to be equal partners with FI, meaning I am not 'in charge' of him and I'm not expected to police him, counsel him in a professional capacity, or act as his parole officer. What steps can you recommend to get us there?" Right now it seems like your therapist is suggesting small steps within the framework that you've already given her, which is the framework where FI is the "child" and you are his "good influence/parent/moral police," but honestly that isn't working, and can never work long-term. So flip the script, tell her you're tired of this role, and ask for solutions that work in a different framework. Nanny software and separate bank accounts are just band-aids anyway; it's time to ask about surgery.

Rather than discussing these things with the couples therapist, I think you need to see one separately for yourself, and possibly one who specializes in working with people who are in relationships with the mentally disabled. I also think you might want to consider speaking to a person who specializes in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome to get an idea of which expectations for this relationship are realistic and which are not. These are things I think you need to explore on your own and not in front of your FI right now.

Actually I second this. These questions are to get to the bottom of A. what is possible, and B. how you will react once you know the facts. Definitely good to work this stuff out on your own rather than asking your FI to work it out with you.

raissyrais · August 2014

You said it yourself Doey. He is making excuses.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

His spiral is not your problem. You're not his mom, his in-care nurse, his sponsor, whatever.

Why do YOU have to be the one to shoulder him and all his problems / excuses? You have no obligation to give up the rest of your life because he caught your eye however long ago.

doeydo · August 2014

Thank you everyone. You are all so great I can't even describe it.

I spent some time with my mom today, she she reassured me that it was OK for me to move in or stay at her place temporarily if I wanted to. I told her that he had issues with addictions (didn't go into any specifics) and she told me about what it was like with my bio dad (she was a codependent like I am now, I guess) with his addictions and everything. She works tomorrow day shift then Saturday and Sunday night shift (so she will be home and "alive" tomorrow night and Tuesday on, as she will sleep most of Monday). I fixed her phone so hopefully I'll be able to get a hold of her if I need to in the next few days.

raissyrais · August 2014

Good luck Doey. You can do this! Be strong, we are all here to back you up and support you!

jynxiie · August 2014

I'm really glad you can turn to your mom. I have dealt with a very similar relationship (it didn't work out for myself) but I kept it all in. I didn't tell anyone for years until it all ended. It's incredibly frustrating and hurts your own self esteem so much. If you want to talk to someone, even though you have your mom - let me know okay? Keep strong, you're a wonderful woman.

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