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I Messed Up Big Time...this could be the end.

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Re: I Messed Up Big Time...this could be the end.

  • I could not agree with @southernbelle0915's latest post more. Neither of your subsequent posts, OP, have changed my mind about what I originally said. If anything, it just makes me even sadder for you. Waiting on your verdict? Your future and your life are not up to him to dictate. You have as much control over what happens as him. Even if he says he wants to continue the relationship, do you? This seems like a pretty bad situation. I stayed in a horribly abusive relationship for years (I'm not saying yours is abusive, I'm just saying I myself was in a really bad situation) and I saw all these red flags along the way but kept telling myself we could work it out. Well, when he punched me in the face, shoved me down a flight of stairs, and choked me until I blacked out, I finally realized there was no working it out. I had known all along that I needed to end it, but just didn't have the guts to do so and kept making excuses. In hindsight, I wish I would have ended it WAY sooner, back when I first realized it was a bad relationship. Again, I am not saying that your relationship is abusive or violent at all. My point -- and my comparison-- is that you're waiting around making excuses even though you seem to know in your gut that this isn't right. In hindsight, you will wish you had acted on your own behalf much sooner.
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    perdonami
  • I'm so very sorry you're going through all of this.  

    I ditto a lot of what PP's are saying.  Please stop thinking you're dumb for thinking certain ways or looking into things.  In the end, you do not trust him, and you're right not to, but you should not be entering a marriage without trust.  What will happen the next time he has a late course?  Or the next time he won't have sex with you for weeks?  Endlessly worrying about things and constantly analyzing if things have gotten better, and how long they've been better, is not healthy.  
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    novella1186lurkergirlperdonami
  • Replace porn with alcohol and see how you would be feeling about this story: "I'm ok with him drinking occasionally despite his admitted addiction in the past. He used to get blacked out drunk and belligerent to the point that it severely affected our relationship. He lied to me a lot about his drinking.  He said he would change but I don't know if he will. He then asked me to monitor every time he had a sip of beer but then he figured out ways around it. As it stands now, he only gets blacked out drunk and belligerent once a month and afterwards we fight. He says that I shouldn't care because other people drink. When his Dad got arrested for drink driving, it shook me, but he said I was stupid and dumb for even thinking that. And now because he says I don't trust him around alcohol he doesn't know if he wants to marry me."

    That doesn't sound like an alcoholic committed to recovery, does it?
    Brilliant.
    *msstaticfancypants*
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  • I don't think this is 100 percent your fault. He broke your trust and he doesn't seem to get that he needs to earn it back. Did you overreact by going to his office? Maybe, but it's not like your fears were completely unfounded. He's had some really shady behaviour in the past.

    As others have said, I'm surprised you've stayed with him this long. If I were you, the very least I would do is postpone the wedding and seek couples therapy.
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  • levioosalevioosa Southern California member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for the support, everyone.  Honestly I thought a lot of you would take his side, so I'm glad to hear that my thoughts are not completely uncalled-for.  

    Now, I do feel like I need to explain some more.  I know that he is to blame for creating the trust issues in the first place, but I do see how I am to blame for not moving on from the past.

    Some of you feel like he hasn't done anything to rebuild the trust, and that's not true.  Around the time he started counseling, he asked me to put accountability software on his electronic devices.  This helped short-term, but in the end just created more frustration because he would waver back and forth on whether or not he wanted it there, and then I would see when he would get around the filter and so I would question him about it, etc.  We had to step back and reassess, and realize that him trying to quit cold turkey wouldn't work.  And I shouldn't have expected him to do that anyhow.  

    So now the filters are gone and like I said, for the past year he has been very accountable and whenever I have a question he hears me out.  I really do trust that he's telling me the truth.  I have no issue with the porn use, EXCEPT for when I feel like he's choosing it over me.  Which (here comes the honesty), probably happens about once a month.  I'll ask him about it and it usually leads to argument about why I'm asking the same thing over and over on a monthly basis.  I don't know, I can't help it....when we haven't had sex for awhile that's where my mind automatically goes.  Now that you know that I am starting these arguments about once a month, it may change your perception.  

    FI has never given me a straight reason to think that he's cheated on me, apart from when he was pursuing that girl while we were together.  (Which he has repented on and said that was an immature mistake.)  So I'm not really sure where my insecurities stem from with that.  I think I just know a lot of people who have dealt with infidelity in their relationships and it freaks me out.

    I am going to counseling on my own, and last week we discussed counseling and FI said he would go with me, even though he doesn't think it helps much.  (He didn't get much out of it when he went for the porn issues, since his counselor was of the opinion that what he was doing was totally normal and acceptable.)  Except last night after what happened, he changed his mind and thinks we are too young to need counseling.  His logic is: "If we start counseling now, what does that say about how the rest of our marriage will go?"  I said, "Umm, if we start counseling NOW for an issue that's occurring NOW, it's to stop us from having to go in the future."

    The problem just comes down to our differing viewpoints on "how long" it should take to get over this.  I feel like since he's really only been accountable for the past year, I've only had a year to start the healing process (still doesn't excuse my monthly insecurity about it).  But his view is that I've known about the issue for four years, so I have had all that time to work on getting over it.  I tell him that I've talked to other people about it and they agree that you can't put a time frame on a healing process, and his response is that if he talked to any of this other porn-viewing guy friends about it they would say he's been very reasonable in putting up with my issues about it, and they would be getting fed up with me too.  

    I understand how this is frustrating to him because he doesn't want to have the same redundant argument every month for the rest of his life.  I know that I can completely get over this, he's just fed up with giving me the time to do it.  I feel like things have improved (I mean, in the thick of it all, we were fighting on a multiple-times-a-week-basis, because I knew when he was lying to me)...but he doesn't see any improvement over the past few years.  

    I have an appt with my counselor on Friday and I'll talk to her about getting both of us in there.  If it's not too late.  For now I am just waiting on my verdict.  :(

    _______________________Uhhhh, TK, whyyyyy____________________________  

    So. Many. Red. Flags.  

    1)  Accountability devices change your relationship roles.  He has made you the parent.  The relationship is not equal.  I will say that I think personal accountability is a great thing, i.e. like having a mentor or a counselor who you talk to honestly.  But instead he put the software on, then found ways around it, but someone, he still blaming you for the porn?  What?  

    2) You guys aren't even married yet and he's already choosing it about every month over you?  You know things will only get harder when you're married, right?  The frequency will increase because he is unwilling to handle his addiction.

    3) Just. Woah.  Please re-read those words.  He pursued another girl while you were still together.  That does not say maturity, trust or respect.  

    4) He should be seeing an addiction counselor, which is very different from the type of counselor he was seeing.  Frankly, I question how good that counselor was if he knew this was a problem, an addiction, and he still said that it was normal and healthy.  (Clue: If it's interfering with your relationship and day to day lives, it's not normal).

    5) No, his guy friends would not be annoyed with this.  You know why?  Because they don't have an addiction (this is clearly an assumption on my part), and consequently, it hasn't interfered with their relationships.  So it wouldn't even be an issue in the first place.


    He hasn't been willing to work through this.  He has placed blame on you, he has refused to use the resources to work through his addiction.  He has made you a parent, not an equal partner.  And he has also gaslighted you.  I was with someone for six years too.  Ending it is the hardest thing, and it feels like it is literally breaking your heart.  But when it's over and you realize it was so unhealthy, you are free.

    At the very least you need to postpone the wedding and get couples and individual counseling.  BUT, he needs to be equally invested in the help as well.  Addiction just doesn't "go away."  If he's saying that, he's lying.  It will always be there.  He has to utilize the resources and the help to combat it.  If he's unwilling to do that, then you are better off finding someone who makes you a priority, who communicates well with you, who is trustworthy, and who is willing to do whatever it takes to prove that you are beautiful, worthy and amazing.  


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    novella1186doeydohuskypuppy14beharrington
  • doeydodoeydo Southwestern Ontario member
    Seventh Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    Holy tamole, this sounds scarily like my relationship.  Now, my advice might sound hypocritical or something, but it is something that I do think would be best for you.
    1.  Cancel/postpone the wedding ASAP.  Yes, it might be awkward or a "waste of money", but not nearly enough as going through the wedding and getting a divorce later on.  Your friends and family will understand.
    2.  Kick his ass out.  Call it a break, if you wish, but do it.  He will only twist your thoughts, make you doubt yourself, make everything magically your fault when it is fucking not.  He is not the injured party here, you are.
    3.  Take some time and continue to go to therapy for yourself and try to build your confidence up and figure out why you seemed to think this kind of relationship is OK for you to be in.  

    Also, if he truly has a porn addiction, he should not be engaging in it whatsoever.  Do you know how addictions and recovery work (this is not meant to sound snarky or anything)?  Maybe you could read a few books on porn/sex addicts or something.
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  • doeydodoeydo Southwestern Ontario member
    Seventh Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    Oh, also, I am sorry that you are going through this.  We are here for you.
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  • bethsmilesbethsmiles Denver, CO member
    10000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    At the very least you absolutely need to postpone the wedding. These trust issues won't just go away on their own, it's something you both need to work on together. You need to be able to be open/honest with him about how you are feeling without him being defensive/making you feel crazy/being a jerk.

    When I started dating SO I had trust issues left-over from a shitty relationship where the guy treated me like dirt and cheated on me. So sometimes I would get insecure with SO but he never, ever made me feel crazy about having the emotions I did. He always heard me out, talked with me, and made it clear that I could trust him. Now those trust issues are completely gone. If he can do that when he never did anything to break my trust in the first place, why can't your FI (who did do something to lose your trust) put in the same effort to work on trust in the relationship?


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  • hellosweetie1015hellosweetie1015 Where the skies are so blue member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    To me, you work through "trust issues" when you struggle with trust because of your own stuff. Here, you don't trust him because he's not trustworthy. That's not you having an issue. That's a consequence.
    This. 
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  • sarawifenowsarawifenow Denver, baby! member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    I'm sorry this is happening to you. You have every right to be feeling the way you are. I think you should definitely postpone the wedding. Trust is one of my deal breakers in a relationship.
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  • Fran1985 Fran1985 Narnia member
    Seventh Anniversary 500 Love Its 500 Comments Name Dropper

    Sure if you took a random poll of people with no background and was like hey, should I show up to my FI work and yell at him? People would say no you shouldn't. But it is soo soo manipulative for him to be saying this is your fault. You had an understandable reaction. There are so many red flags. At least post pone the wedding- get yourself free of the three week timetable in order to decide what to do.


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  • PrettyGirlLostPrettyGirlLost A Land Filled with Unicorns and Cat Hair member
    5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    And yes, I am playing devil's advocate here, because I'm trying to see this from his perspective.  I'm sure we can all agree that if our spouses/SOs had a hard time getting over something after four years, it would be frustrating to answer the same questions over and over.  I think he's convinced that at this point I'm just never going to get over it.  And I don't know what to do to convince him otherwise.

    My best friend divorced her husband when she found out he was cheating on her with one of those live-webcam girls.  I let articles influence me too much...I've read things like 'signs of cheating' and it says, "If your SO is buying you things for no reason, this is a sign of cheating."  Just an example.  It's dumb but I totally read into those things.  So when all this stuff accumulated last week, I started reading into it.  FI hates it that I let things like that influence me, or compare our relationship to what some cheesy women's magazine says.  He says he hasn't been acting weird for the past two weeks, it's all just in my mind and I'm putting pieces together that don't actually exist.  

    @lurkergirl, that is a good point about finding someone new to me who will be unbiased.  I just feel like counseling doesn't help unless you connect with the counselor, and since I like the one I'm seeing now, it's hard to step out and find one we both like.  I am willing to, I just can't expect too much enthusiasm from FI about it.
    This may be true, but the bottom line is that you don't trust him. .. and he's the one that worked ever so tirelessly to fuck that trust over so long ago.

    And honestly his attitude and response to you when you went to his office sounds like gaslighting to me.

    If he's serious about saving this relationship and gettig married, and you are too then you need to postpone the wedding and he needs to go to a therapist that sepcializes in porn addiction, and you both need to go to couple's counseling top try and work through your relationship issues.

    "Love is the one thing we're capable of perceiving that transcends time and space."


  • And yes, I am playing devil's advocate here, because I'm trying to see this from his perspective.  I'm sure we can all agree that if our spouses/SOs had a hard time getting over something after four years, it would be frustrating to answer the same questions over and over.  I think he's convinced that at this point I'm just never going to get over it.  And I don't know what to do to convince him otherwise.

    My best friend divorced her husband when she found out he was cheating on her with one of those live-webcam girls.  I let articles influence me too much...I've read things like 'signs of cheating' and it says, "If your SO is buying you things for no reason, this is a sign of cheating."  Just an example.  It's dumb but I totally read into those things.  So when all this stuff accumulated last week, I started reading into it.  FI hates it that I let things like that influence me, or compare our relationship to what some cheesy women's magazine says.  He says he hasn't been acting weird for the past two weeks, it's all just in my mind and I'm putting pieces together that don't actually exist.  

    @lurkergirl, that is a good point about finding someone new to me who will be unbiased.  I just feel like counseling doesn't help unless you connect with the counselor, and since I like the one I'm seeing now, it's hard to step out and find one we both like.  I am willing to, I just can't expect too much enthusiasm from FI about it.
    First I just want to say that I agree with all the PPs. You have been given some great advice here.

    To the first bolded: You CANNOT convince him of something that you do not believe. Do you know why you have yet to be successful convincing him that you're over it?? Because you're not over it!! Actions speak louder than words, and he can clearly tell that this is still bothering you, no matter how many lies you tell yourself and him.

    To the second bolded: This just screams of distrust issues. You feel so insecure in your relationship that you're looking for signs of cheating! You know how sad that sounds, right?? 3 weeks before I got married, my H brought me home pizza and wine because I was stressed out. I knew it was because he loved me, not because I thought he was cheating on me.

    As a therapist myself, I cannot recommend higher going to couples counseling and working through the trust issues.
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    esstee33sarawifenowPrettyGirlLost
  • steph861steph861 member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer Name Dropper
    edited October 2014
    OP, my heart breaks for you because you've convinced yourself* that everything is your fault when that's so obviously not the case. PPs have got it covered - there's a legitimate reason why you jumped to the conclusion you did. *ETA: He has convinced you
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    doeydo
  • Do your friends and family know what's going on? Where do they stand on all this? I can't imagine anyone who cares about you and knows the truth is ok with any of it. 
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    perdonami
  • I appreciate all of your insights and concerns.  I guess I will have to wait until he gets home to see if he wants to talk about this tonight.  

    You all make very good points, but I can't help but worry if I've been totally unbiased in how I've presented this.  I feel like I have, apart from leaving out some things that aren't pertinent information.

    One thing I thought of--don't all of your men view porn as well?  I mean the vast majority do.  So I don't see how I can demand that FI stop.  Like I said, I don't know that what was going on with him could be considered an addiction.  To me, an addiction in this manner means using it multiple times a day, or some frequency like that.  He told me that the most he ever looked at it was every other day, or multiple times a week. (Which a lot of guys do.)  Since then he has cut back to maybe a couple times a month.  But when he was doing it more frequently, he used it as his main stress reliever (also which most guys do), but I think what made it an addiction to him is that he felt he couldn't choose not to use as a stress reliever.  He couldn't choose to play video games to relieve stress over looking at porn.  So I think in that way he felt helpless to it, and that is what he has fixed.  

    @LondonLisa, that was a very powerful way of looking at it.  I want to share that with FI but I'm not sure how.  

    It makes me mad that this is all crashing down because of what I did last night.  Like if that hadn't happened then this wouldn't even be discussed right now.  
  • In his mind he's done all that he can to prove to me that I can trust him.  He's answered the same questions over and over, he's been open with me about it, he's supported me through my counseling, he did the Love Dare for me, he has apologized so many times.  He feels there's nothing else he can do.  I can't think of anything else he could do either.  Except for have more patience with me.
  • levioosalevioosa Southern California member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    I appreciate all of your insights and concerns.  I guess I will have to wait until he gets home to see if he wants to talk about this tonight.  

    You all make very good points, but I can't help but worry if I've been totally unbiased in how I've presented this.  I feel like I have, apart from leaving out some things that aren't pertinent information.

    One thing I thought of--don't all of your men view porn as well?  I mean the vast majority do.  So I don't see how I can demand that FI stop.  Like I said, I don't know that what was going on with him could be considered an addiction.  To me, an addiction in this manner means using it multiple times a day, or some frequency like that.  He told me that the most he ever looked at it was every other day, or multiple times a week. (Which a lot of guys do.)  Since then he has cut back to maybe a couple times a month.  But when he was doing it more frequently, he used it as his main stress reliever (also which most guys do), but I think what made it an addiction to him is that he felt he couldn't choose not to use as a stress reliever.  He couldn't choose to play video games to relieve stress over looking at porn.  So I think in that way he felt helpless to it, and that is what he has fixed.  

    @LondonLisa, that was a very powerful way of looking at it.  I want to share that with FI but I'm not sure how.  

    It makes me mad that this is all crashing down because of what I did last night.  Like if that hadn't happened then this wouldn't even be discussed right now.  
    Oh honey,  you really need to go read up on addiction (seriously, you won't be able to fully deal with this until you understand the cycle of addiction).  And while, yes, there are two sides of every story, we are letting you know why these are such powerful red flags.  Something had to give.  Going to his work is a sign of how bad and unhealthy the relationship has become.  Don't talk yourself out of acknowledging that.  

    My guy doesn't watch porn (I know that he's a minority).  He doesn't like it and feels like it is very fake. @LondonLisa is right on with the alcohol analogy.  If your FI got drunk and crashed into a pole every month would you think it was a problem?  Because that is what he is doing emotionally to your relationship.  He should want nothing more than to make things work with you.  But you can't make him change.  He has to want that for himself.  


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    lurkergirlesstee33doeydoPrettyGirlLost
  • You've mentioned you start asking him about the porn when you haven't had sex in a while. Are you initiating sex and he's refusing, or are you waiting for him to initiate? If it's the former, then you are absolutely right to be suspicious. If it's the latter, I wonder if you could try initiating rather than accusing? I'm not saying it's all your fault by ANY MEANS, but if he feels like all the responsibility is on him surrounding sex (when you have it, when he's allowed to look at porn, if he's looking at too much, if you're satisfied, if he's satisfied) then maybe that's stressing him out too. This is the kind of thing that he could work out IN COUNSELING, which, by the way, does people more benefit when they're young and relatively willing/able to change rather than when they're old, set in their ways, and accustomed to being miserable. (Wow, sounds like a fun future, huh? I bet the two of you can hardly wait).
    It's both.  Sometimes I initiate it, like in the morning as he's leaving for work, I'll say something like "When you get home later we'll...." and he always seems interested.  And then when he gets home he starts playing video games or is too tired or whatever so it doesn't happen.  Maybe that is my fault since I don't re-initiate it when he gets home.

    He said if I want him to initiate it more then I have to just wait for him to do it on his own.  And then I'm waiting and waiting and it doesn't happen, so finally I speak up and that is what causes an argument.
  • You're making excuses for him.  And if last night hadn't happened, you still would have been suspicious because of everything else that you listed.

    Honestly you both sound like you need to be in couples counseling and mature a bit before you get married.  If you're so quick to to not trust him (mainly because he has proven untrustworthy) and he's so quick to blame you and try to make you feel crazy, well that's just not healthy.  

    And for the record, I have zero issue with people watching porn.  However you say it affects your sex life so that makes in a problem.  And no, not all men watch porn multiple times a week.  My FI would far rather have sex with me than watch other people have sex, and if I told him that something made me uncomfortable (or if he told me something I did made him uncomfortable) we would stop, because a relationship is all about communication and being willing to compromise.

    I sincerely hope you go talk to a professional and have more therapy.  Apologizing and doing a Love Dare isn't proving him trustworthy.  If he "needs" porn to relieve his stress, then that IS an addiction and he needs help.  Speak to someone together (even try a 2 person therapy team) but honestly he sounds manipulating and you sound like someone who has been emotionally abused.  I'm very sorry you have to go through this but I would not marry someone who I would be having these kind of issues with 3 weeks out.
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  • slothiegalslothiegal The Sloth Farm member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited October 2014
    I appreciate all of your insights and concerns.  I guess I will have to wait until he gets home to see if he wants to talk about this tonight.  

    You all make very good points, but I can't help but worry if I've been totally unbiased in how I've presented this.  I feel like I have, apart from leaving out some things that aren't pertinent information.

    One thing I thought of--don't all of your men view porn as well?  I mean the vast majority do.  So I don't see how I can demand that FI stop.  Like I said, I don't know that what was going on with him could be considered an addiction.  To me, an addiction in this manner means using it multiple times a day, or some frequency like that.  He told me that the most he ever looked at it was every other day, or multiple times a week. (Which a lot of guys do.)  Since then he has cut back to maybe a couple times a month.  But when he was doing it more frequently, he used it as his main stress reliever (also which most guys do), but I think what made it an addiction to him is that he felt he couldn't choose not to use as a stress reliever.  He couldn't choose to play video games to relieve stress over looking at porn.  So I think in that way he felt helpless to it, and that is what he has fixed.  

    @LondonLisa, that was a very powerful way of looking at it.  I want to share that with FI but I'm not sure how.  

    It makes me mad that this is all crashing down because of what I did last night.  Like if that hadn't happened then this wouldn't even be discussed right now.  




    Mine does.  But the difference is that it doesn't affect our relationship.  Big difference.


    ETA fucking boxes
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