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Emma Sulkowicz aka Mattress Girl

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Re: Emma Sulkowicz aka Mattress Girl

  • novella1186novella1186 member
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    pinkrevenge said:
    sarahufl said:
    pinkrevenge said:
    I know it's a very American thing to always hear both sides of a story and attempt to give them equal merit. But while that's a nice idea that comes from a good place, we really need to break that habit. Not every side has equal merit.

    Sometimes the other side thinks vaccines will give their kids autism.
    Sometimes the other side thinks fossil records are the devil playing tricks on us.
    Sometimes the other side is a guy who wouldn't have beaten his girlfriend if she hadn't done anything to upset him.
    Sometimes the other side is a religious leader who is absolutely certain that women's tits being out cause earthquakes.
    And sometimes the other side is a rapist.


    But can't you at least see that Columbia University (along with MANY other universities in this country) have a huge problem with this. HUGE. And while getting pissed off is clearly the right reaction, it is better to solve the problem so it doesn't keep happening.

    And the only way to solve this sort of stuff is to understand how and why it happens. So that the next person who is assaulted or raped has a safe place to go and is treated with respect and doesn't get screwed over in the process. While I would love to just see it STOP HAPPENING, it is more realistic to properly train people to respond to these cases and resolve them in a more appropriate manner.

    Wouldn't you like to see people like this prosecuted? Don't you think that by understanding the faults in the system you can then make it better for the next person?
    I totally agree that we need to reform, but I didn't get ANY of that from bringing up the perpetrator. He thinks he's totally innocent, all those girls are lying bitches and he's a free man. He also thinks the school had no business even allowing his victims to have a voice at all.

    Not sure how talking about his side creates any reform at all. We can figure out where that mentality comes from without giving him a soapbox. Misogyny and Rape culture isn't a mystery to us, though you sure as hell wouldn't know it by the way this country goes about it.
    I work in clinical research, and sometimes it's my job to delve into WHY and HOW (every single detail might matter, no matter how tiny). 

    So I can see why it might matter to get into the perpetrator's side (in a historic sense, not in an on-going case) to move towards reform because it's like "Ok his case should NOT have been dismissed. He should NOT have gotten away with it." But then you have to go back and see why and how. How was it so easy for this piece of shit to get away with it? What did he say? What was his (bullshit) side? Who let this slide? 

    Pink, you said another girl came forward but this douche appealed so many times that she gave up, so he got off the hook that time too. Ok, so now we have some causality to an outcome. And now we see a fundamental flaw in the process: he should not have had unlimited appeals. So now we move backwards from there, and change that dumbass appeals system. There should not be unlimited appeals for a perpetrator, he should not be able to frustrate and exhaust his victim to the point that she stops standing up for herself. 

    The Rape Shield laws are a result of looking at Why and How. "How did this rape case get dismissed?" "Well, the victim was re-victimized because the perpetrator alleged in court that she likes rough sex and is extremely promiscuous and blah blah blah which discredited her. It was humiliating to her, unjustly got the case dismissed, and discouraged other victims from reporting their rapes." Causality. Well then, let's create some legislation that DOESN'T allow that to happen. 

    I guess I can just see the importance of that side of it... I'm working on evidence right now to fight a lawsuit and I needed to know what the other side was alleging and what their story was, what their claims were, what kind of evidence they have, etc in order to know where to direct my research and gather relevant evidence of my own. You can't fight the bad guys if you don't know the bad guys, if that makes sense. 
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  • redoryxredoryx member
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    sarahufl said:
    pinkrevenge said:
    sarahufl said:
    pinkrevenge said:
    I know it's a very American thing to always hear both sides of a story and attempt to give them equal merit. But while that's a nice idea that comes from a good place, we really need to break that habit. Not every side has equal merit.

    Sometimes the other side thinks vaccines will give their kids autism.
    Sometimes the other side thinks fossil records are the devil playing tricks on us.
    Sometimes the other side is a guy who wouldn't have beaten his girlfriend if she hadn't done anything to upset him.
    Sometimes the other side is a religious leader who is absolutely certain that women's tits being out cause earthquakes.
    And sometimes the other side is a rapist.


    But can't you at least see that Columbia University (along with MANY other universities in this country) have a huge problem with this. HUGE. And while getting pissed off is clearly the right reaction, it is better to solve the problem so it doesn't keep happening.

    And the only way to solve this sort of stuff is to understand how and why it happens. So that the next person who is assaulted or raped has a safe place to go and is treated with respect and doesn't get screwed over in the process. While I would love to just see it STOP HAPPENING, it is more realistic to properly train people to respond to these cases and resolve them in a more appropriate manner.

    Wouldn't you like to see people like this prosecuted? Don't you think that by understanding the faults in the system you can then make it better for the next person?
    I totally agree that we need to reform, but I didn't get ANY of that from bringing up the perpetrator. He thinks he's totally innocent, all those girls are lying bitches and he's a free man. He also thinks the school had no business even allowing his victims to have a voice at all.

    Not sure how talking about his side creates any reform at all. We can figure out where that mentality comes from without giving him a soapbox. Misogyny and Rape culture isn't a mystery to us, though you sure as hell wouldn't know it by the way this country goes about it.
    Of course he thinks he is innocent- isn't how this often happens? How often do you hear rapists conceding?! Considering the facts of the case does not give him merit. I like to understand the entirety of it (to the best of my ability). Understanding does not mean you are supporting or defending, it means you are trying to learn more about it.

    Again, by learning how these things GO WRONG, you can hopefully fix it for the next person.

    A group of grown women should be able to have a productive conversation about these things.
    Not agreeing doesn't mean not productive. 
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] member
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  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl member
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    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    I don't think we've discussed this. But I'm assuming most of you are aware of the Columbia rape vicitim who protested the way her school dealt with her rape (by not dealing with it at all and allowing her rapist to remain in school with her) but carrying her mattress (that the rape occured on) with her all year.

    She graduated a week or so ago and carried her mattress (with the help of her friends) accross the stage. Such an awesome video to see. 

    Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 


    So, what do we all think? 
    Also, just another point (because I know we discuss language a lot here....)

    When working with people who are facing sexual or domestic violence, the term "victim" isn't supposed to be used. When I got my certification as a counselor through the state of New York, we were taught to use "survivor" instead- because victim becomes more of a label and....victimizes the person. Survivor is a more positive term.
    Yes. By all means. We want to stay positive about rape. Don't want the word "victim" volleyed around because then it makes it sound like something bad happened. Really lets call it an "unfortunate sexual incident". Honey you aren't a rape victim, you are the survivor of an unfortunate sexual incident.

    Much like the word "handicapable" instead of "handicapped" this distinction between victim and survivor isn't not about making the actual person who had to deal with being fucking raped feel better. It's to make the people who have to deal with the person who had to deal with being raped feel better. 

    Yes, survivor can absolutely be an empowering word. But victim is still a correct word. If it were any other crime, would you call them a survivor? Lets say you were mugged. Are you a mugging victim or a mugging survivor? 
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  • sarahuflsarahufl member
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    MagicInk said:
    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    I don't think we've discussed this. But I'm assuming most of you are aware of the Columbia rape vicitim who protested the way her school dealt with her rape (by not dealing with it at all and allowing her rapist to remain in school with her) but carrying her mattress (that the rape occured on) with her all year.

    She graduated a week or so ago and carried her mattress (with the help of her friends) accross the stage. Such an awesome video to see. 

    Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 


    So, what do we all think? 
    Also, just another point (because I know we discuss language a lot here....)

    When working with people who are facing sexual or domestic violence, the term "victim" isn't supposed to be used. When I got my certification as a counselor through the state of New York, we were taught to use "survivor" instead- because victim becomes more of a label and....victimizes the person. Survivor is a more positive term.
    Yes. By all means. We want to stay positive about rape. Don't want the word "victim" volleyed around because then it makes it sound like something bad happened. Really lets call it an "unfortunate sexual incident". Honey you aren't a rape victim, you are the survivor of an unfortunate sexual incident.

    Much like the word "handicapable" instead of "handicapped" this distinction between victim and survivor isn't not about making the actual person who had to deal with being fucking raped feel better. It's to make the people who have to deal with the person who had to deal with being raped feel better. 

    Yes, survivor can absolutely be an empowering word. But victim is still a correct word. If it were any other crime, would you call them a survivor? Lets say you were mugged. Are you a mugging victim or a mugging survivor? 
    You are whatever works for you.

    Again, this is what we were taught in a training I took through the state of New York. I am not belittling anyone. Sharing knowledge. That is it.
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  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl member
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    edited May 2015
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
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  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl member
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    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    I don't think we've discussed this. But I'm assuming most of you are aware of the Columbia rape vicitim who protested the way her school dealt with her rape (by not dealing with it at all and allowing her rapist to remain in school with her) but carrying her mattress (that the rape occured on) with her all year.

    She graduated a week or so ago and carried her mattress (with the help of her friends) accross the stage. Such an awesome video to see. 

    Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 


    So, what do we all think? 
    Also, just another point (because I know we discuss language a lot here....)

    When working with people who are facing sexual or domestic violence, the term "victim" isn't supposed to be used. When I got my certification as a counselor through the state of New York, we were taught to use "survivor" instead- because victim becomes more of a label and....victimizes the person. Survivor is a more positive term.
    Yes. By all means. We want to stay positive about rape. Don't want the word "victim" volleyed around because then it makes it sound like something bad happened. Really lets call it an "unfortunate sexual incident". Honey you aren't a rape victim, you are the survivor of an unfortunate sexual incident.

    Much like the word "handicapable" instead of "handicapped" this distinction between victim and survivor isn't not about making the actual person who had to deal with being fucking raped feel better. It's to make the people who have to deal with the person who had to deal with being raped feel better. 

    Yes, survivor can absolutely be an empowering word. But victim is still a correct word. If it were any other crime, would you call them a survivor? Lets say you were mugged. Are you a mugging victim or a mugging survivor? 
    You are whatever works for you.

    Again, this is what we were taught in a training I took through the state of New York. I am not belittling anyone. Sharing knowledge. That is it.
    Man...you should run for office with those non-answers.

    My point is in any other crime we recognize that a crime took place by using the word victim. In rape, we'd like to use the word survivor. To negate the fact that a crime took place. 
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  • novella1186novella1186 member
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    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    I think it should be a federal mandate that to be a part of university administration anywhere, you need periodic training (like real, actual, beneficial training) on shit like this. Not even kidding. Like "This is rape. This is what the victim goes through on a mental and emotional level. This is what the victim goes through when your shithead university sweeps this stuff under the rug. These are long-term mental and emotional effects. Here is the correct way to handle a rape allegation. Here is the correct way to deal with a victim." And so on, and so on. Thorough, legitimate, painful, undeniable, unignorable, gruesome training. 

    I mean, my mom is in real estate and to keep her license she has to go back to school every 2 years or something like that. 

    Elementary school teachers are required to go back and take courses on a regular basis. 

    My hair stylist is required to do further training once per year. 

    Why are people in a position of power handling such huge things and responsible for the lives and well-being of developing young adults NOT required to have periodic appropriate training?? 
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  • sarahuflsarahufl member
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    MagicInk said:
    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    I don't think we've discussed this. But I'm assuming most of you are aware of the Columbia rape vicitim who protested the way her school dealt with her rape (by not dealing with it at all and allowing her rapist to remain in school with her) but carrying her mattress (that the rape occured on) with her all year.

    She graduated a week or so ago and carried her mattress (with the help of her friends) accross the stage. Such an awesome video to see. 

    Of course, because people are shitty, there people saying there was no rape, she's just doing for attention, blah de blah. 


    So, what do we all think? 
    Also, just another point (because I know we discuss language a lot here....)

    When working with people who are facing sexual or domestic violence, the term "victim" isn't supposed to be used. When I got my certification as a counselor through the state of New York, we were taught to use "survivor" instead- because victim becomes more of a label and....victimizes the person. Survivor is a more positive term.
    Yes. By all means. We want to stay positive about rape. Don't want the word "victim" volleyed around because then it makes it sound like something bad happened. Really lets call it an "unfortunate sexual incident". Honey you aren't a rape victim, you are the survivor of an unfortunate sexual incident.

    Much like the word "handicapable" instead of "handicapped" this distinction between victim and survivor isn't not about making the actual person who had to deal with being fucking raped feel better. It's to make the people who have to deal with the person who had to deal with being raped feel better. 

    Yes, survivor can absolutely be an empowering word. But victim is still a correct word. If it were any other crime, would you call them a survivor? Lets say you were mugged. Are you a mugging victim or a mugging survivor? 
    You are whatever works for you.

    Again, this is what we were taught in a training I took through the state of New York. I am not belittling anyone. Sharing knowledge. That is it.
    Man...you should run for office with those non-answers.

    My point is in any other crime we recognize that a crime took place by using the word victim. In rape, we'd like to use the word survivor. To negate the fact that a crime took place. 
    It isn't a non-answer. Believe it or not, some people prefer the term survivor. Others prefer the term victim. For someone who is constantly talking about using specific terms to describe herself, I don't understand why this is so hard.

    If someone asked you to use the term survivor instead, would you tell him/her that they are a victim and they need to know that? I certainly hope you wouldn't.
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  • sarahuflsarahufl member
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    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    So, I posted this somewhere in this thread already, but they created some really weak sexual behavior program last semester that was horribly received in an attempt to do this.

    Clearly it needs to be worked on. Google "columbia sexual respect" and a ton of stuff comes up- both the program itself and the criticisms of it.
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  • novella1186novella1186 member
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    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    So, I posted this somewhere in this thread already, but they created some really weak sexual behavior program last semester that was horribly received in an attempt to do this.

    Clearly it needs to be worked on. Google "columbia sexual respect" and a ton of stuff comes up- both the program itself and the criticisms of it.
    Maybe at freshman orientation they need to give everyone a bottle of lube and nudey magazine and say "Don't rape. If you get super horny, use this and your own damn hand." 
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  • mikenbergermikenberger member
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    novella1186 said:
    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    I think it should be a federal mandate that to be a part of university administration anywhere, you need periodic training (like real, actual, beneficial training) on shit like this. Not even kidding. Like "This is rape. This is what the victim goes through on a mental and emotional level. This is what the victim goes through when your shithead university sweeps this stuff under the rug. These are long-term mental and emotional effects. Here is the correct way to handle a rape allegation. Here is the correct way to deal with a victim." And so on, and so on. Thorough, legitimate, painful, undeniable, unignorable, gruesome training. 

    I mean, my mom is in real estate and to keep her license she has to go back to school every 2 years or something like that. 

    Elementary school teachers are required to go back and take courses on a regular basis. 

    My hair stylist is required to do further training once per year. 

    Why are people in a position of power handling such huge things and responsible for the lives and well-being of developing young adults NOT required to have periodic appropriate training?? 

    I think the training should just be "Keep your hands and all of your 2000 parts to yourself." I hang out in campustown frequently (I'm an old lady that likes great drink specials - sue me) I can't tell you how many times some creeper will perch up next to a girl and touch her back or touch her arm or touch her leg when she's given NO indication that he's welcomed to. It's fucking ridiculous. And some girls just sit there or they walk away. They should be able to say "I don't believe I gave you permission to touch me." but then they become the crazy bitch at the bar that doesn't like men. Fucking infuriating. I'm sure it happens in all kinds of scenarios, people need to be able to say no and people need to be able to keep their hands to themselves.

    This also includes the stuff of your roommate too. Don't be taking someone's sweater without asking and stretching it out. Asshole.

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  • novella1186novella1186 member
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    southernbelle0915 said:
    novella1186 said:
    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    I think it should be a federal mandate that to be a part of university administration anywhere, you need periodic training (like real, actual, beneficial training) on shit like this. Not even kidding. Like "This is rape. This is what the victim goes through on a mental and emotional level. This is what the victim goes through when your shithead university sweeps this stuff under the rug. These are long-term mental and emotional effects. Here is the correct way to handle a rape allegation. Here is the correct way to deal with a victim." And so on, and so on. Thorough, legitimate, painful, undeniable, unignorable, gruesome training. 

    I mean, my mom is in real estate and to keep her license she has to go back to school every 2 years or something like that. 

    Elementary school teachers are required to go back and take courses on a regular basis. 

    My hair stylist is required to do further training once per year. 

    Why are people in a position of power handling such huge things and responsible for the lives and well-being of developing young adults NOT required to have periodic appropriate training?? 
    This. And further, I think it should be a part of Sex Ed curriculum. And not just dark alley stranger danger...like acquaintance rape. And calling out casual statements that are rapey, like the college guys casually talking about "loose juice" or whatever. 

    Honestly? Before I got to college, I had the misconception that rape was only the violent crime on a dark street or stranger danger abduction in a parking lot that I had seen in movies and on TV. No one ever talked about it or educated about it. Even my freshman orientation was mum. It wasn't until I took a women's study class that I actually "got it" and was able to start better understanding rape culture and the overwhelming (yet subtle) victim-blaming attitudes of so many.

    That shit needs to be discussed early on. If kids are being educated about sex, they should be educated about actual consent. But this would also mean that everyone agrees that kids should be educated about sex so........yea. We have a long way to go.
    Totally agree. I was assaulted in high school, and I never thought of it as assault or as any kind of crime because he was a friend of mine that I had known for a long time. He just did something I didn't like, that made me feel awful, and didn't listen when I kept saying no. That's way different than rape, right? Because rape is when a stranger attacks you while you're walking down a dark street, like you see in movies (just like you said). 
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] member
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  • novella1186novella1186 member
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    pinkrevenge said:
    novella1186 said:
    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    So, I posted this somewhere in this thread already, but they created some really weak sexual behavior program last semester that was horribly received in an attempt to do this.

    Clearly it needs to be worked on. Google "columbia sexual respect" and a ton of stuff comes up- both the program itself and the criticisms of it.
    Maybe at freshman orientation they need to give everyone a bottle of lube and nudey magazine and say "Don't rape. If you get super horny, use this and your own damn hand." 
    Well frankly, comprehensive, scientifically accurate, and socially responsible sex-ed should be a semester-long required high school course that is mandatory and cannot be opted out of. Consent and what is an actual healthy sexual encounter needs to be taught in the time frame that young adults and children start shaping their relationships. The number of girls in my own high school who were raped and don't know it blew my mind. And how do you say to someone "you just said you were raped" and make them believe it when you're seventeen?
    Yeah I find it disturbing when little boys on the playground force kisses onto little girls-- like, chase the girls, hold them down, and kiss them while they're trying to squirm away-- and adults think it's so "cute." "Aaaw he likes her! Aaaw he wanted a kiss!" No! Teach them NOW that they did not have consent for that kiss! (If you see my post above, I didn't even realize I had been assulted when it happened, and I was 15 or 16 at the time). 
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  • daria24daria24 member
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    This American Life recently did a story on a course on consent that one university was offering. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/557/birds-bees?act=1#play

    This type of course should be mandatory on every campus, but I think consent education has to start, in an age-appropriate manner, at the pre-school level. I know recently on TK there was a thread about whether children should be forced to kiss/hug/etc relatives and I think that ties into this whole discussion. A four year old shouldn't be told-you have to go kiss Grandma, they also have the right to decide, I don't feel like hugging Aunt Marge today. 
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  • TrixieJessTrixieJess member
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    MagicInk said:
    How hard is it to teach people not to rape? Maybe someone should show the officials at Columbia University that "consent is like tea" video. Cause for being a fucking Ivy League school it sure is run by some dumbasses who DO NOT HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF RAPE. 

    When is it rape? When the person you're fucking didn't say yes.
    This is something that needs to be done across all ages. One of the things that we can do is help stop the ideas of masculinity that are prevalent in media and sport, where to be "man" you have to be X way. We need to teach children to respect themselves and others. Teaching girls that it's okay to say no, and teaching boys that they must respect that decision, these are ways to help end the "culture of Rape". 

    Now I'm not saying this will prevent ALL rapes that happen, but everyone needs to remember that rape is rarely sexual based, it's about power. It's used as an instrument of war, it's used to keep groups of people in line, it's used to show people, I can do this once and will do it again if...

    That's my $0.02 after watching young girls struggle after having been assaulted and raped by boyfriends, strangers at parties, or people they knew. 
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  • FiancBFiancB member
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    kaos16 said:
    This is likely going to be a very unpopular post. . . . but i'm putting it out there.  

    I would be interested to see the outcome of the suit that the alleged rapist has against the university.  I would also be very interested to see the reasons that the DA's office chose not to pursue charges against him.  

    It seems like there is a lot to this case that isn't public knowledge that could probably be very insightful.

    Admittedly, as an attorney who has prosecuted rape cases, and who has dismissed made up rape cases I am quite cynical.

    FYI, for those that say the alleged rapist is using her sexual history against her, in NY there are protections, at least in criminal trials, where a defense attorney is forbidden from using a victim/survivor's past sexual history against them.  They are commonly referred to as Rape Shield Laws.  While he can allege these things in a suit against the school, if he would have been charged with raping her and took the case to trial there is no way his attorney would have been able to question her about her sexual history with him or anyone else. A victim/survivor's sexual history has NOTHING to do at all with whether they were raped in the case being prosecuted.
    Correction: you dismissed cases where there was not sufficient evidence to prosecute.

    I'm sure this happened a time or two but the overwhelming evidence shows that false rape charges are no more common than for any other crime. You make it sound like it's the majority of cases. And as mentioned, that protection is not always there, and even if it is and the attorney blurts out that she's a slut or something, they'll get told to shut up but it's still out there and able to sway the jury.
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  • southernbelle0915southernbelle0915 mod
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    Plus and also, because of the lack of public education and general awareness on rape, DH and I will be talking to our son about it when we have the birds and the bees chat. I don't really know how yet, but I'm determined to.. so we will read about it and find a good way to approach it.
    *********************************************************************************

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  • bethsmilesbethsmiles member
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    My university did require all freshmen to attend a rape seminar the first week of freshmen year. It was a couple hours long and I think we had to watch some videos and take online quizzes afterward as well. I was surprised how many of my peers didn't know that rape isn't just something that happens in a dark alley by a stranger.

    But this is clearly something that needs to be taught long before kids get to college. Unfortunately, it seems like we are a long way from that happening.



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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] member
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    edited June 2015
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  • VulgarGirlVulgarGirl member
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    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    sarahufl said:
    MagicInk said:
    sarahufl said:
    Also, just another point (because I know we discuss language a lot here....)

    When working with people who are facing sexual or domestic violence, the term "victim" isn't supposed to be used. When I got my certification as a counselor through the state of New York, we were taught to use "survivor" instead- because victim becomes more of a label and....victimizes the person. Survivor is a more positive term.
    Yes. By all means. We want to stay positive about rape. Don't want the word "victim" volleyed around because then it makes it sound like something bad happened. Really lets call it an "unfortunate sexual incident". Honey you aren't a rape victim, you are the survivor of an unfortunate sexual incident.

    Much like the word "handicapable" instead of "handicapped" this distinction between victim and survivor isn't not about making the actual person who had to deal with being fucking raped feel better. It's to make the people who have to deal with the person who had to deal with being raped feel better. 

    Yes, survivor can absolutely be an empowering word. But victim is still a correct word. If it were any other crime, would you call them a survivor? Lets say you were mugged. Are you a mugging victim or a mugging survivor? 
    You are whatever works for you.

    Again, this is what we were taught in a training I took through the state of New York. I am not belittling anyone. Sharing knowledge. That is it.
    Man...you should run for office with those non-answers.

    My point is in any other crime we recognize that a crime took place by using the word victim. In rape, we'd like to use the word survivor. To negate the fact that a crime took place. 
    It isn't a non-answer. Believe it or not, some people prefer the term survivor. Others prefer the term victim. For someone who is constantly talking about using specific terms to describe herself, I don't understand why this is so hard.

    If someone asked you to use the term survivor instead, would you tell him/her that they are a victim and they need to know that? I certainly hope you wouldn't.
    If someone wants to refer to themselves as a rape survivor that's fine. That's their choice. I acknowledge that is an empowering word.

    However victim from a legal standpoint is still an important word. Counseling and legality are not always the same thing. In the counseling world you might want to use the word survivor to focus on empowerment and coming through a difficult time. In the legal word you want to use the word victim to illustrate someone being the victim of a crime. Regardless of what that crime is, a crime is committed.

    Victim is the correct word to use. So is survivor. I believe your point was that we should only use survivor. While that might be true at where you rape counsel, that is not a universal truth.
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  • FiancBFiancB member
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    I kind of perceived rape as being only stranger danger as well. As a senior, my teacher in sex ed actually did bring up consent and basically like guys, if a girl is drunk, just don't even think about it, and always ask. That was nice. That was kind of the first time I'd thought about that. She also shared that poem "The Rape of Mr Smith", which blew my mind at that point.

    The last university I went to required first semester freshmen to complete an online course on consent and stuff. It was a joke. It took about 20 minutes and I don't remember what was on it. I really don't think it got down to the root of the matter but it makes the university less liable and that's all they really care about.

    @sarahufl I'm curious what this training you did is and how it pertains to your job. I was under the impression you do office work. Do you also volunteer at a center or is that part of your job or some required seminar or...?
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  • TrixieJessTrixieJess member
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    southernbelle0915 said:
    Plus and also, because of the lack of public education and general awareness on rape, DH and I will be talking to our son about it when we have the birds and the bees chat. I don't really know how yet, but I'm determined to.. so we will read about it and find a good way to approach it.
    My parents had a Dinner open conversation policy, at dinner time we all ate together and we could talk about anything that was going on, personally, or in the news, even hypotheticals we could ask about. This is the same thing we plan on doing with my son growing up. This way if there is something in the news, or something he hears about at school, we can talk to him about it in an open conversation.
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  • TrixieJessTrixieJess member
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    FiancB said:
    I kind of perceived rape as being only stranger danger as well. As a senior, my teacher in sex ed actually did bring up consent and basically like guys, if a girl is drunk, just don't even think about it, and always ask. That was nice. That was kind of the first time I'd thought about that. She also shared that poem "The Rape of Mr Smith", which blew my mind at that point.

    The last university I went to required first semester freshmen to complete an online course on consent and stuff. It was a joke. It took about 20 minutes and I don't remember what was on it. I really don't think it got down to the root of the matter but it makes the university less liable and that's all they really care about.

    @sarahufl I'm curious what this training you did is and how it pertains to your job. I was under the impression you do office work. Do you also volunteer at a center or is that part of your job or some required seminar or...?
    This is a dangerous perception, most women are raped by men that they know. I'm not absolutely certain of the actual statistics as it is often under reported, but here is a link to RAINN:


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