Etiquette

Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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Re: Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

  • acove2006 said:
    While I still think ppd are silly, I'm in the just don't lie camp. It's such a simple concept that few seem to grasp. If you really feel that the piece of paper , that allows you to be married, is "meaningless" or "simple" than why bother with it at all? Several have stated that to them that piece of paper means nothing; that it's he vows and public ceremony that creates a marriage/wedding. If that's truly how you feel why not skip it then? Oh wait......because that silly paper DOES mean something. A big something. It affords you benefits that only MARRIED couples can receive. So you'd either be lying about your feelings, feel you're extremely entitled, or you'd simply be a cold bitch who doesn't give a shit about anyone else.
    Just playing devils advocate, there are some places you cannot get married without legal paperwork even if you want to. A mosque for instance. The couple may not care about that paper but a sheikh does.
  • InkdancerInkdancer The Shire
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    acove2006 said:
    While I still think ppd are silly, I'm in the just don't lie camp. It's such a simple concept that few seem to grasp. If you really feel that the piece of paper , that allows you to be married, is "meaningless" or "simple" than why bother with it at all? Several have stated that to them that piece of paper means nothing; that it's he vows and public ceremony that creates a marriage/wedding. If that's truly how you feel why not skip it then? Oh wait......because that silly paper DOES mean something. A big something. It affords you benefits that only MARRIED couples can receive. So you'd either be lying about your feelings, feel you're extremely entitled, or you'd simply be a cold bitch who doesn't give a shit about anyone else.
    Just playing devils advocate, there are some places you cannot get married without legal paperwork even if you want to. A mosque for instance. The couple may not care about that paper but a sheikh does.
    That's the point we're trying to make, though: that paper is important, and means something. If you've got the paperwork signed, you're married. It counts.

    Also, as I understand it, you don't get legally married months before, hide it from everyone, and then go to the mosque to get "really married." It's a process that happens all at once.
    Daisypath Anniversary tickers
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    PrettyGirlLost
  • There's some interesting comments from Carley Roney, co-founder of The Knot in this article. I thought this comment was particularly interesting: "By "[the] real [wedding]," some people may mean the wedding that is legally binding; others mean the one with more religious or cultural significance."

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323468604578245782119353410

    There you have it. Some people do not consider the legally-binding ceremony to be "the real one" or the one that is binding, essential, and has emotional value. While a legal marriage is legally binding, a spiritual marriage may be even more so in the eyes of the beholder. Someone may feel that in order for them to be 100% married, they need 
    to have a religious ceremony, and that the legal portion is simply a side benefit, even if it is a significant one. If someone does not value a legal ceremony, then they probably will not experience the same emotional experience that they would at a "real" wedding because they probably consider it to be only a part of the process of getting married.

     If a guest can very well not consider a couple married until a religious ceremony, then why not the bride and groom? Marriage is a social construct, there are many ways that people have gotten married in the past. In the middle ages, you were considered married when you simply made a public declaration of it! So I don't think it is unreasonable to say that you're married when you consider yourself married because it is a social construct. Here's a definition: perception of an individual, group, or idea that is 'constructed' through cultural or socialpractice (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/social+construct)
    AroundTheBlock
  • @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    dwhereicome
  • @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    Cultural ties have nothing to do with religion and non believers. Oh just thought of another reason of how you're hypocritical. We're telling you a real wedding is the one you become legally married at or have it recognized by your country/area. This is backed up by definitions and fact. Regardless of what you're calling your Mexico ceremony it's not your real wedding since you're already married. Yet you continue to claim you're not lying because YOU don't think it's a lie. We'll according to definitions and facts you ARE lying, you simply don't want to admit it. People can't have the emotions you want them to have if you didn't lie, according to you. So pot, meet kettle.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

    cookie0803KeptInStitches
  •  
    acove2006 said:
    @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    Cultural ties have nothing to do with religion and non believers. Oh just thought of another reason of how you're hypocritical. We're telling you a real wedding is the one you become legally married at or have it recognized by your country/area. This is backed up by definitions and fact. Regardless of what you're calling your Mexico ceremony it's not your real wedding since you're already married. Yet you continue to claim you're not lying because YOU don't think it's a lie. We'll according to definitions and facts you ARE lying, you simply don't want to admit it. People can't have the emotions you want them to have if you didn't lie, according to you. So pot, meet kettle.

    Agree. I said religious OR cultural.

     







    PrettyGirlLost
  • MobKazMobKaz Chicago suburbs
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    acove2006 said:
    @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    Cultural ties have nothing to do with religion and non believers. Oh just thought of another reason of how you're hypocritical. We're telling you a real wedding is the one you become legally married at or have it recognized by your country/area. This is backed up by definitions and fact. Regardless of what you're calling your Mexico ceremony it's not your real wedding since you're already married. Yet you continue to claim you're not lying because YOU don't think it's a lie. We'll according to definitions and facts you ARE lying, you simply don't want to admit it. People can't have the emotions you want them to have if you didn't lie, according to you. So pot, meet kettle.
    For all that is holy, do not feed this beast... of a thread. There is right.  There is wrong.  There are those who simply do not care.  Let this dog lie.
    image
    Maggie0829WildMageletKeptInStitches
  • mobkaz said:
    acove2006 said:
    @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    Cultural ties have nothing to do with religion and non believers. Oh just thought of another reason of how you're hypocritical. We're telling you a real wedding is the one you become legally married at or have it recognized by your country/area. This is backed up by definitions and fact. Regardless of what you're calling your Mexico ceremony it's not your real wedding since you're already married. Yet you continue to claim you're not lying because YOU don't think it's a lie. We'll according to definitions and facts you ARE lying, you simply don't want to admit it. People can't have the emotions you want them to have if you didn't lie, according to you. So pot, meet kettle.
    For all that is holy, do not feed this beast... of a thread. There is right.  There is wrong.  There are those who simply do not care.  Let this dog lie.
    image

    You're right. Got caught up. This thread is the definition of insanity.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

    MobKazSabinus15grumbledore
  • This is the stupidest thing I have ever read in my life
    dianaloveserikperdonami
  • lyndausvi said:
    jnissa said:
    I think the problem here is that the assumption is that the PPD is about the bride and groom and everybody else is bitter and angry that they have to sit through some "staged" re-enactment of a wedding. If that is the case, then yes. It's in poor taste. But I can pretty much assure you, having been involved in several PPD, that in many cases the event is just as much about if not more about making family and friends feel happy and involved and special. Not every situation is about a PPD being about some bride wanting to wear a pretty dress. Sometimes those weddings are important (and desired) by other people. And sometimes waiting until you could have that wedding wasn't an option. 

    Here's the end game - people should do what makes them happy. And if people find it distasteful, there is a perfectly good "decline" spot on any invitation. I know plenty of people who married for health insurance or the ability to get a visa to be with their fiancee when he got transferred to Asia or in one case so that a dying mother could say she saw her daughter get married. In none of those cases did I resent going to a "full" wedding later on. I would feel a lot more bitter about a vow renewal after five years than I would letting a couple have their full wedding day because life and the need for legalities intervened early. I'm so glad that so many people in this thread have lives that are uncomplicated enough that situations like this never happened to them - but that's not every life. 
    I 100% agree.  However, if the couple choose to omit the fact they are legally married you are not really give the choice now are you?

    Exactly this. Just don't lie. Easy enough right?

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

    NYCBruinaurorajanettePrettyGirlLostjenniferurs
  • acove2006 said:
    mobkaz said:
    acove2006 said:
    @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    Cultural ties have nothing to do with religion and non believers. Oh just thought of another reason of how you're hypocritical. We're telling you a real wedding is the one you become legally married at or have it recognized by your country/area. This is backed up by definitions and fact. Regardless of what you're calling your Mexico ceremony it's not your real wedding since you're already married. Yet you continue to claim you're not lying because YOU don't think it's a lie. We'll according to definitions and facts you ARE lying, you simply don't want to admit it. People can't have the emotions you want them to have if you didn't lie, according to you. So pot, meet kettle.
    For all that is holy, do not feed this beast... of a thread. There is right.  There is wrong.  There are those who simply do not care.  Let this dog lie.
    image

    You're right. Got caught up. This thread is the definition of insanity.
    @Jells2dot0
    I agree, and this was my whole reasoning in wanting to even post to this thread. There is a difference between those just wanting attention or gifts and those who are doing it for a religious ceremony. Therefore, it is not right to make this thread a "sticky". It sends the message to every bride that no matter what this is how it is, so deal with it. It's not right to paint everyone with the same brush. There is some decent advice someone might have gained from you ladies, but this thread discourages them from even posting. It's great to have an opinion, but lets not represent these as cold hard facts. If anything, this thread has proven your ideals are not so cut and dry as you might believe them to be. 
    I think by far, you crack me up the most. You have said everything from lets agree to disagree to someone should lock this thread. It's comical how you keep saying this on every page, but yet there you are again with some kind of commentary. At this point, it's hard to take anything you say seriously. Thanks, for the entertainment though, it's been fun to watch.   
    AroundTheBlockSabinus15perdonami
  • jnissa said:
    I think the problem here is that the assumption is that the PPD is about the bride and groom and everybody else is bitter and angry that they have to sit through some "staged" re-enactment of a wedding. If that is the case, then yes. It's in poor taste. But I can pretty much assure you, having been involved in several PPD, that in many cases the event is just as much about if not more about making family and friends feel happy and involved and special. Not every situation is about a PPD being about some bride wanting to wear a pretty dress. Sometimes those weddings are important (and desired) by other people. And sometimes waiting until you could have that wedding wasn't an option. 

    Here's the end game - people should do what makes them happy. And if people find it distasteful, there is a perfectly good "decline" spot on any invitation. I know plenty of people who married for health insurance or the ability to get a visa to be with their fiancee when he got transferred to Asia or in one case so that a dying mother could say she saw her daughter get married. In none of those cases did I resent going to a "full" wedding later on. I would feel a lot more bitter about a vow renewal after five years than I would letting a couple have their full wedding day because life and the need for legalities intervened early. I'm so glad that so many people in this thread have lives that are uncomplicated enough that situations like this never happened to them - but that's not every life. 
    @jnissa

    Very well said, all of it! 
    Sabinus15dwhereicome
  • @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 
    @STBMrsEverhart please put more words into the mouths of atheists and non-believers. Really, tell me how I, as an Atheist, really think about PPD's...

    I know you're insensitive to other people's traditions, cultures, emotions, etc. but that doesn't mean that the rest of us are.
    My friends are having two different weddings - one is Indian and the other is Catholic- I'm not even sure which one they will be legally married at.  I don't mind this a bit and I sure as heck don't believe in god :)
    image
    aurorajanettejenniferursperdonami
  • HiThere674HiThere674
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    edited February 2014
    What is the difference between a PPD and a Vow Renewal?
  • What is the difference between a PPD and a Vow Renewal?

    Properly done vow renewals don't resemble traditional weddings. The husband and wife in non bridal clothes reaffirming their vows, sometimes in front if family and friends. A reception of some sort should follow. No wedding party, cake cutting, garter or bouquet tosses. PPDs are when a couple feels entitled to a fancy or traditional wedding, even though they're already married. But the biggest issue is PPDs typically include lying. If yOne wants to prance around pretending to be a bride even though she's a wife go for it, just inform your guests that you're already married.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

    grumbledorePrettyGirlLostjenniferurs
  • Sabinus15Sabinus15
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    edited February 2014



    @beam


    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 

    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 

    @STBMrsEverhart please put more words into the mouths of atheists and non-believers. Really, tell me how I, as an Atheist, really think about PPD's...

    I know you're insensitive to other people's traditions, cultures, emotions, etc. but that doesn't mean that the rest of us are.



    BOXLESS:
    I think it's funny that you are criticizing someone for putting words in people's mouth, but in the same breath you turn around and do the exact same thing.
  • edited February 2014
    lyndausvi said:
    acove2006 said:
    What is the difference between a PPD and a Vow Renewal?

    I was thinking more in line with cutting the cake and then feeding it to each other. Though I've never been to a non wedding event where the cake cutting was a big to do....someone literally just cut the cake and served it up. Properly done vow renewals don't resemble traditional weddings. The husband and wife in non bridal clothes reaffirming their vows, sometimes in front if family and friends. A reception of some sort should follow. No wedding party, cake cutting, garter or bouquet tosses. PPDs are when a couple feels entitled to a fancy or traditional wedding, even though they're already married. But the biggest issue is PPDs typically include lying. If yOne wants to prance around pretending to be a bride even though she's a wife go for it, just inform your guests that you're already married.
    I agree with this except the cake cutting.  Ceremonial cake cutting are not reserved for weddings.  Parties often have cake, cake needs to be cut.  Often the guest of honor cuts said cake.  

    My comment is lost somewhere up there. I was thinking more in line with the feeding each other aspect of the cake cutting. Any non wedding event I've attended didn't include a big to do about cake cutting. Someone, usually the host, literally just cuts the cake and serves it. The only thing I've seen is birthday candles being blown out.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

  • @beam
    Believe it or not, there is a difference between having a ceremony because of strong religious beliefs/ties or cultural beliefs/ties versus having one because you think you deserve to dress up for a day or you want pretty pictures in a dress on the beach. 
    Really? Not to non-believers there's not. 
    @STBMrsEverhart please put more words into the mouths of atheists and non-believers. Really, tell me how I, as an Atheist, really think about PPD's...

    I know you're insensitive to other people's traditions, cultures, emotions, etc. but that doesn't mean that the rest of us are.
    @aurorajanette, it's completely your prerogative to think that religious wedding ceremonies trump non-religious ceremonies, even as an atheist. It's peculiar to me indeed, but that doesn't really effect me, so your opinion of the matter is no more, or no less valid than mine. Which was, by the way, all I was expressing. I have no desire to speak for ALL the non-believers, so my interest was never in putting words in the mouths of others. 

    Your presumption regarding my level of sensitivity on absolutely any subject in the world doesn't raise more than a "meh" from me, but thanks for sharing your speculations all the same.

  • chibiyui said:


    chibiyui said:

    I don't get why you keep hammering at the idea that because some of us might lie to our kids about Santa, its wrong to tell others its inappropriate to lie about their marital status. Thats like saying because I had a fender bender at 16, I can't teach my future kid to drive. Or that because I said a racial slur as a child I can't tell someone else using the slur that it's racist.

    What? I am not hammering the point, you are. This isn't about things you do as an adult vs. things you do as a kid. lol This is about lying!!! You all said lying was wrong, that's the point I am debating. However, now you are all are saying it depends on the situation...you changed the facts of your original argument to fit your purpose. 
    No, this is your entire point. I get it, your trying to be all "it comes down to the indiviual situation and who are you to judge" but almost everyone on here has said that they do that (IRL). I have seen, and know people who have had "PPD"s I understand and I get their reasoning, (of course, my examples involve either no lying or lie of omission because it was first trimester of a high risk pregnancy after a miscarriage)

    Lying is wrong. The indiviual weight of each lie varies person to person. I'm an adult, I'm capable of realizing the difference between my Mom lying about Santa and a friend lying about her marital status. Its wrong to lie to your kids about Santa, its wrong to lie to your guests about your marital status. It is culturally acceptable to lie to your kids about marriage, it is not culturally acceptable to lie about your marital status.

    I guess I'm not understanding why your friends felt they needed to get married 4 weeks sooner, just because they found out they were pregnant. That doesn't make any sense. Either way, they would have been married before the baby came.
    aurorajanettethemuffinman16
  • Sabinus15 said:


    lyndausvi said:

    I'm pretty sure if your FI/DH lied and cheated on you there would be judging going on.  But you are correct, you might be one of those submissive wives who let that kind of stuff slide.

    I find your comment off-putting and offensive. I consider myself a submissive wife-to-be, and yes I would give my husband a second chance if he cheated and lied to me. I can see past one mistake. Now if there was a pattern of cheating and lying, that would be different because that shows me that I'm not worth it to him, so I would choose divorce if it can't be worked out. I don't think that mercy is something to be ashamed of and I take pride in my personality. I am just as self-secure as any other woman by the way, and I don't think submissiveness is anything to be ashamed of. It's just how I work. 

    What? Wow.
  • I don't understand why the concept of not lying is so hard to grasp for some. It's an extremely simple missive.

    At the end of the day, if your only reason for doing so is so that your guests will not feel resentful over having wasted their time, you a) realize that bearing witness to a reenactment under the guise of it being a real wedding would cause some to feel as though they wasted their time, and b) realize that giving them the option to decide whether or not they want to waste their time may result in them declining to attend altogether. Either way, it comes back to selfish, not altruistic, motives on the part of the "bride and groom."

    Pointing out that "not all lies are abhorred by society" is nothing but a red herring, offered as a point of distraction from the main issue at hand.
    NYCBruinaurorajanette
  • edited February 2014
    I tend to agree with some PPs. There is always a level of AWish pomp to a wedding . Otherwise, we would not buy that dress to stand out, we would not need the rings, unity candle, dances, cake cutting, bouquet toss, our hair done, etc. I am not against weddings, or hosting your own party, but lying to your guests is tacky (lying about JOP to have a PPD).
    We have made it okay to have a wedding if the parents aren't hosting, Which is still throwing a party in your honor. If you hosted your guests as a thank you for attending your graduation, it would be no more wrong than a wedding, IMO . It just seems like we have drawn a line right beffore wedding, because not many people's parents pay for them, anymore. I just find it convenient that we make excuses for that. Saying we are hosting our guests when it is a celebration to commemorate a big step in our lives. Wedding are a big look at me moment. As are all milestones in our lives. It should not matter who is hosting.
    And I don't know one person that did not bring a gift to a wedding. Just like it is what people do at graduation parties. They want to help out the married couple through their big milestone. Sure there are people who don't give gifts, but that is not the norm
    AroundTheBlockperdonami
  • Frankly I have to say I'm really, REALLY offended by this post. At first I actually thought it was satire until I started reading the comments and was shocked to realize the OP is serious.

    Since I was a little girl, I've dreamed of having a beautiful wedding ceremony surrounded by friends and family. Since I got engaged in August of 2012, I've been planning every single detail of that wedding with the intention of making it a beautiful celebration of love between my fiance and I, a celebration we get to share with our family and friends, a celebration that we and our loved ones will remember for years to come.

    In August of 2013, thanks to the supposedly-wonderful "affordable" care act (don't get me started), my fiance's small law firm was unable to stay on their current plan because costs were going to increase about 66%. They had to switch to another plan that was a comparable price, but copays went up, benefits were drastically cut, and none-literally none-of my fiance's providers were on the new plan. He has a lot of health problems, both mental and physical, and was just about done a 6-month nutritional counseling program to get ready for gastric sleeve surgery which he wanted to have done before the wedding and which would not have been covered under the new plan. I have awesome government health insurance, so the logical thing to do would be to get legally married so he could get on mine. Pushing the wedding up was not an option at this point, thousands of dollars had been put into deposits and vendors and it was simply too late to move up the wedding. So we had to have a quick legal marriage on the sly. 

    Now, OP and others may call this a "choice" ... but if you put yourself in my shoes you'll realize how insensitive that makes you sound. If the person you loved was about to lose all the doctors he's developed a rapport with and who understand all his medical issues, and wouldn't be able to get a surgery that he really wanted to get before the wedding, and have to pay twice as much in copays when money is already tight, would you really just be like "sorry you're SOL until the wedding, deal with it for a few months"? If you loved that person, NO!! You would do whatever it took to get them the care that they need, because you love them, and you want them to be happy and healthy. If there is anyone here who would prioritize being able to have a big wedding over being able to ensure the health of their fiance, sorry but you are marrying the wrong person. So why should one have to choose? Why should one be punished for a selfless act of love?

    Was I hesitant about it because it was going to make our no-longer-"real" marriage in March less special? Yes, I was. But after talking about it with my fiance he convinced me that we would still make our wedding ceremony a special day, the day that we write and recite our own vows, memorialize our commitment with a sand ceremony, and share all this with the friends and family who we love and who love us. Our officiant even said that she does this regularly and she will give us a separate marriage "certificate" (not a legal document) to commemorate our wedding day, so obviously it's not that uncommon or bad a thing.

    We are both attorneys and had a friend who is a District Magistrate perform the ceremony in his office after work one day. We were both in business suits (I don't even remember what color I was wearing or anything). Two members of his staff, who we did not know, were our witnesses. The entire "ceremony" lasted about 2 minutes. We didn't even say "I do" we just answered "yes" or "I will" or something like that. No special vows. No rings were exchanged. Then we signed on the dotted line. So yes we were legally married but we did not have the opportunity for a full-out sharing our feelings of love for each other and being surrounded by family and friends that really was so important to us for our wedding ceremony.

    And in no way am I trying to dilute the importance of marriages when the people choose to get married at city hall. There is nothing wrong with that. They do that by choice, because it's what they want. They bring friends to witness, bride wears white, they exchange rings and kiss and all. That is what they want and there is nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that EVERYONE who has a courthouse marriage has to give up their right to a big wedding, especially if that IS what they want.

    And also, I have been to a wedding where the bride & groom were already married, similar to us, for insurance purposes. I thought the ceremony was beautiful and I was very happy for them that they had the opportunity to read their vows and share their love with their family and friends. Just because it wasn't the legal ceremony didn't make it "fake" ... the love for each other that I saw in them was as real as real can be. I was honored to be a part of it and I don't feel any differently about that wedding than I do about weddings where the people were legally married that day.

    I just think you are being extremely judgmental about a situation that you've clearly never found yourself in and therefore have no right to tell others how they should behave in such a situation. Maybe in the 1980s your post would make sense, but these days with the economy being the way it is some people are between a rock and a hard place so to speak and are put in a position where they really do HAVE TO get married. You should walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you pass judgment on them.

    That's all I have to say; this thread is angering me so much I'm not even going to follow up on it. I've spoken my peace.
    Sabinus15dwhereicome
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