Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

Jells2dot0

Simply Fated said:

@Emilykaett
But, I don't think this is a PPD because if we wanted each of our families to be a part of our wedding, this was the only way we could do it.

The thing is, they won't really be a part of your wedding because what you're having isn't a wedding.
It sucks that your whole family couldn't be there for your wedding, but sometimes the choices we make (like getting married) often results in things not working out exactly the way we had envisioned or hoped.

It is, essentially a vow renewal, which, by etiquette standards is fine. It does seem like a grey area seeing as how you weren't allowed to exchange vows when you got married, though. Do you mean you weren't allowed to exchange personalized, verbal vows? I'm unfamiliar with
I only suggest you wait a few years, maybe until a milestone anniversary for a vow exchange? I'm not a fan of vow renewals, but that seems to be the popular suggestion around here.

THIS.

 It sounds like you already have your invites, but I probably would have noted it was a vow renewal ceremony as opposed to a "celebration of their marriage." However, calling it a "celebration of marriage" is not technically the incorrect way to approach it. Just be sure that everyone knows it's a vow renewal and you can note it as such in the programs. It sounds like everyone is aware of that you are already married, so that is a good start. It is in some ways a re-do in that it's trying to recreate what you wanted your wedding day to really be, but again, as long as you keep it in the mind set of a vow renewal and don't try to do wedding-like things (pre-wedding parties, tosses, etc) it won't seem as much of a PPD.

I understand the reason for not saying vows- it was a civil ceremony at city hall, which is how you have a legal marriage in Spain.

edit- spelling

Emilykaett

I suppose by "be a part of our wedding" I mean more "a part of our marriage". And yes..this whole thing seems like a grey area for us! The process, our options..everything. We completely understand that this isn't a "wedding" but it is a part of us getting married.

In Spain, when you have a JOP wedding which is what they call a civil ceremony or courthouse wedding, it is done by a judge and they basically have a legal document that they read through. They confirm that you are who the paper says you are, that you are doing this of your own free will, and that you understand you are entering into a legally binding contract. Then you each have a chance to say, "Si" or yes, that all those things are true put on the ring and sign a paper. End of story. It took less than 5 minutes.

So I guess I don't feel like this is a "vow renewal" because we never said vows. We never held hands and looked at each other and made promises of how we will treat each other and our marriage. I still view this as a PART of our marriage ceremony. Not a wedding, per-say but not a renewal either.

And as for waiting longer... we've been waiting 3 years to have this part of the ceremony and celebration. And we really didn't have another option unless we would have been willing to live apart (which we had already done for a year and a half) for up to a year or live together in the States and have the whole wedding in one swing (without my husband's only sibling, and maybe mother-in-law; father is deceased) BUT for anywhere up to 8 months my husband wouldn't have been able to work. Which I'm sorry, isn't a legitimate option whether we were dating or engaged or married.

P.S. All of our guests and family know that we are married and have been asking and waiting to hear of when we will do the State-side portion of the marriage/wedding. We are not lying nor misleading ANYONE. They have all been going through this process with us.

Emilykaett

OH, and @SimplyFated-- thank you for being kind with your opinion, I definitely respect it and the way you presented it

Emilykaett

@Jells2dot0 Thank you as well for your help and opinions.

We won't be doing any bachelor/bachelorette parties. If my siblings/close friends ask to do something we might have a joint fun evening out but without the distinction of a bachelor/bachelorette party rather a way for everyone to get to know each other.

Also no bouquet throw. No garter throw. We, however, might do a "first dance" but only because we never got to have one.. I think the guests will give me that one and it will be something they are asked to join us in not like a spotlight thing. And we might just announce it something like "The couple will start the dancing and ask that you join them for the first slow dance" or something of the sort. Between us as a couple we can enjoy it as our "first dance" song and moment without requiring anyone else to do so.

Inkdancer

@Emilykaett As you have been honest with your family and friends about what you are doing, I don't consider this as much of a PPD. You are doing the spiritual exchange of vows separately from the legal paperwork, which is required in many places. Also, you are avoiding many of the typical attention-whorish problems like a bouquet toss or spotlight dances. I think you are in the clear, and should proceed with your celebration with joy.

Jells2dot0

At the end of the day, you chose to get married the way you did. It's fine to have a party back in the States, but the wedding was done the way it was done and there is nothing you can do to change that. It seems like you are trying to justify this by saying "well, I didn't get a dance" or "I didn't get to say vows" so I want to do them now. This is what makes it seem PPD-ish. It was what it was and this event you are having should not try to make up for anything that you lacked the first time around. It should just celebrate the fact that there was a first time!

That being said, kudos to you on ensuring your guests are aware of your situation and that you are approaching this as a wife and embracing the fact you are married. That in and of itself earns respect on these boards.

artbyallie

Really, though, you did have vows. You confirmed that you were marrying of your own free will and consent and that you were legally committing yourselves. And if you want to be more flowery about it, you don't need an audience to do so. You can write letters to each other for an anniversary or something.

Are you going to wear a wedding dress? Or a white dress of any kind?

Emilykaett

I hear you all. Thanks for your help and comments.

I'm not going to pretend our vow exchange and reception are anything that they aren't. It will be a joyful celebration with our family and friends of which many we haven't seen in over two years. I am going to wear a white dress (probably), I am going to do my hair nice, we are going to have people witness us take vows and then have an absolute blast celebrating together. I'm not asking anyone to bring us gifts or pretend this is the moment we are pronounced husband and wife. I'm asking my brothers and sisters, my parents, and our closest friends to be a part of the life we have begun to create. I am asking them to continue to support and love us the way they have done from afar these last few years.

I'm sorry, in my situation, I just don't see this as a PPD. This whole thread had me really feeling bad about what we're doing and doubting it. When it should be another wonderful step in our marriage. So, for me, that's what it will be. And I really hope I don't have anyone there that doesn't know me well enough to not see that.

Thank you, though, for being relatively sensitive in replying to my question. I do appreciate having been listened to and responded to.

Best

grumbledore

Emilykaett said:

I'm going to cut in here because I have a question. I have been trying to go through all the pages of this topic but I can't seem to find someone with the same situation as me. I sincerely apologize if this is a repetition--if it is, could you direct me to roughly which page of the topic it is on and I'll leave you all in peace?

I got married two years ago in Barcelona, Spain. I consider that my wedding day and I'm trying hard not to have a PPD. My husband is from Barcelona so we had to figure out what was the best way for us to get married, and also where would we want to live after we got married? We decided we wanted to move to the U.S. for many reasons so then we had to figure out what was the best for us legally and emotionally (what did we want from our wedding day?). We did tons of research. And I mean tons.

We planned to have the legal wedding here and then move to the U.S. and have a vow exchange ceremony and reception (NOT a "wedding" not a "do-over" but a chance to exchange vows, which was NOT an option at our JOP/courthouse wedding). We chose this way because most of the family from Spain wouldn't be able to travel to the U.S. and none of the U.S. family could travel to Spain (except my mother). We thought this was the best way so that everyone we love could somehow be included in a part of the marriage (I consider the legal part and vows to be the whole marriage ceremony..).

So we had our civil ceremony and had a lovely family lunch afterwards. From my side of the family, only my mother could come.

After the civil ceremony we started to do our paperwork for my husband to come to the U.S. Only now, two years later (1.5 years of paperwork processing etc.) do we have permission to go to the U.S. Now, why did we wait to have the U.S. side of the wedding so long? Because 1) They changed the immigration laws and we no longer could use the 3 month process we had planned on. 2) Once you begin immigration paperwork, the intending immigrant is NOT allowed to travel to the U.S.

So, now we are planning the vow exchange ceremony and reception for our family and friends in the U.S. We are not "re-enacting" anything. We never got to exchange any vows and we think that is an integral part of getting married. No one will pronounce us "Husband and Wife", no one will announce "for the first time I present Mr. & Mrs. soandso". The ceremony will consist of a pastor saying a prayer, a few short readings or speeches, and our vows.

Our invitations say, "Together with their familes, Jane and John, request the pleasure of your company at the celebration of their marriage" And I certainly don't expect anyone to bring a gift or even a card--their presence at this ceremony and celebration is what we are looking forward to. We won't be registering anywhere.

 I don't believe we "aren't married yet". I know we are. I wear the ring and I call him my husband because he is. But, I don't think this is a PPD because if we wanted each of our families to be a part of our wedding, this was the only way we could do it.

So my questions are these:
1) Am I really having a PPD and don't know it? Bleh, I don't want to be that girl.
2) Is there something I can do to make sure my guests aren't rolling their eyes behind their programs? (we won't actually have programs but..you get the point)
3) Again--if there is a similar situation just tell me which page of the thread and I'll stop bothering you!

Thanks..and please be nice? I'm truly trying to do this in the best way possible.

You're already married, so I'd do the celebration and just skip the vow exchange/ceremony.  It's fine to celebrate with your family and friends here in the US.  Just make it a well-hosted celebration.  

Simply Fated

Emilykaett said:

OH, and @SimplyFated-- thank you for being kind with your opinion, I definitely respect it and the way you presented it

Thank you

I honestly respect you for having been honest with your friends and family AND with yourself.
Congrats on being married! I hope you have fun celebrating with them, however you choose to go about it.

classyduck

grumbledore said:

You're already married, so I'd do the celebration and just skip the vow exchange/ceremony.  It's fine to celebrate with your family and friends here in the US.  Just make it a well-hosted celebration.  

artbyallie said:

Really, though, you did have vows. You confirmed that you were marrying of your own free will and consent and that you were legally committing yourselves. And if you want to be more flowery about it, you don't need an audience to do so. You can write letters to each other for an anniversary or something.

Are you going to wear a wedding dress? Or a white dress of any kind?

With respect, I have to disagree. While the legal part of marriage is what makes it official, it doesn't necessarily make it "complete." Marriage isn't ONLY a legal arrangement, it is also (and was originally) a social contract between the bride, the groom, and the community. Before paperwork was invented, a community's witnessing of vows being exchanged is what made a marriage legitimate and solemn (and within a religious context, of course a religious authority did that also). A vow has weight and meaning because you are accepting personal accountability for it, and more witnesses implies more accountability. I suspect this is why witnesses have always been such an important part of weddings. Public vows (of all kinds, not just marriage) are found across cultures and history, I would guess, because the publicity of it makes it weightier.

Personally, I think what Emilykaett has done so far has been very conscientious given the circumstances. She isn't trying to dupe anyone into thinking they are witnessing a marriage, and hasn't communicated with her guests in a way that suggests that. So while her marriage is official, legal, and real, the public or social contract component is still missing (what I think she was talking about when she mentioned wanting her family to be "part of her wedding/marriage"). Wishing to solemnize vows by inviting friends, family and community to witness them isn't wrong--Especially when she has been completely honest and informed her guests about the exact nature of the ceremony, and plans to host them graciously afterwards.

A PPD is when you want to be an attention whore. But there ARE legitimate reasons for wishing for the attention of others, and witnessing a public vow is one of them.

classyduck

artbyallie said:

Really, though, you did have vows. You confirmed that you were marrying of your own free will and consent and that you were legally committing yourselves. And if you want to be more flowery about it, you don't need an audience to do so. You can write letters to each other for an anniversary or something.

Are you going to wear a wedding dress? Or a white dress of any kind?

I would argue that indicating to the state through official channels (in this case a contract) what the legal paramaters of your relationship is, isn't the same thing as a vow. I didn't make a vow to pay my mortgage, I just signed a contract. A vow is much more personal, and the motivation to keep it should come from personal integrity, not the threat of legal ramifications. Marriage contracts just back up vows for when they fail.

crunchymamaof2

But the thing is,@classyduck, in the US, and some other areas, you can do the legal and religious/spiritual/public parts at the same time. So to separate them is a bit AWish. Most people have very legitimate reasons for choosing a courthouse style wedding and forgoing many witnesses.'that doesn't mean a couple is entitled to a traditional wedding later on. They've already fulfilled all the necessary parts needed to be married (except in the Catholic Church's eyes but even then you're not entitled to a traditional style wedding). Proclaiming vows in front of many witnesses serves no real purpose other than to have eyes on you as your actual marriage vows have already been said. And if you insist on reclaiming your vows in front of an audience you don't need a fancy white dress, a wedding party, and all that jazz to do so.

Now in emilykaett's case they were married in a country with different rules. But they chose to be married there (for I agree with their choice) and knew the consequences if that choice. I personally think the correct way to do things would be to just host an awesome party to celebrate and maybe say a few words to each other at the beginning of dinner. But as long as they're being honest with everyone I can side eye but not really complain.

iloveotters2014

Are having vow renewals weird then? I only ask because a friend of mine got married a few years ago in a very small park ceremony, and next year for their 5 year anniversary they are planning to do a small destination vow renewal in mexico and just invite close friends and family. Obviously she wont be mad if people cant make it, but hey vacation!! Is that a PPD? To me it just sounds like a vow renewal? She has never said "this is my wedding" she has said...."I want to renew my vows with the people I care about." So to me that sounds different right?

Jells2dot0

magee2011 said:

Are having vow renewals weird then? I only ask because a friend of mine got married a few years ago in a very small park ceremony, and next year for their 5 year anniversary they are planning to do a small destination vow renewal in mexico and just invite close friends and family. Obviously she wont be mad if people cant make it, but hey vacation!! Is that a PPD? To me it just sounds like a vow renewal? She has never said "this is my wedding" she has said...."I want to renew my vows with the people I care about." So to me that sounds different right?

Vow renewals are usually most accepted in situations where the bride and groom overcame some difficulties in life or have been married for quite some time. However, it can certainly be done at different points in the marriage. The most important factors in determining if it's a PPD are 1) do the guests know it's a vow renewal? The answer here is yes, so that is good! Also, is it an attempt to re-do their first wedding because it wasn't big enough, fancy enough, or wasn't what the bride really wanted due to time or budget restrictions? If they are having a vow renewal to "get what they missed out on previously" then it is most likely a PPD. If they really just want to celebrate with others and everyone knows their intent, then it is not so much a PPD as just a vow renewal.

edit- grammar

pinkshorts27

magee2011 said:

Are having vow renewals weird then? I only ask because a friend of mine got married a few years ago in a very small park ceremony, and next year for their 5 year anniversary they are planning to do a small destination vow renewal in mexico and just invite close friends and family. Obviously she wont be mad if people cant make it, but hey vacation!! Is that a PPD? To me it just sounds like a vow renewal? She has never said "this is my wedding" she has said...."I want to renew my vows with the people I care about." So to me that sounds different right?

Personally, I think that it is a little AWish to have a destination vow renewal (unless it is truly private). I'm pretty sure I would feel like I had to go if I was close to the person, but really Mexico is not my idea of a vacation and I would be irritated to spend money/vacation time on going. But it is different than a PPD. 

ETA: the "but hey vacation!!!" attitude bothers me. Note, just because it is a vacation for you, doesn't mean I want to spend my vacation there or that I want to see all these people on my vacation. 

iloveotters2014

I didnt really mean "Hey vacation!" in the sense that oh yeah I get a cheapo vacation! I just meant it as cool I can go see two of my good friends renew their vows and get to spend some time on a beach with my friends. But I can see your point. Not everyone may feel like I do about it.

i dont really think they are doing it because they missed out on something. I think the just want to do something really small to commemorate their love for each other 5 years after their wedding.

A PPD seems like a pretty slippery slope. I'm not gonna lie, I'm glad my fiance and I are doing everything the regular way in just a few weeks

pinkshorts27

magee2011 said:

I didnt really mean "Hey vacation!" in the sense that oh yeah I get a cheapo vacation! I just meant it as cool I can go see two of my good friends renew their vows and get to spend some time on a beach with my friends. But I can see your point. Not everyone may feel like I do about it.

i dont really think they are doing it because they missed out on something. I think the just want to do something really small to commemorate their love for each other 5 years after their wedding.

A PPD seems like a pretty slippery slope. I'm not gonna lie, I'm glad my fiance and I are doing everything the regular way in just a few weeks

So I honestly think they are etiquette-wise okay. I just was stating my personal opinion. Just so that is clear

melaniejames517

Happy I found this feed. Just received a call from my friend who had a JP Ceremony and now wants "the real deal". I am one of four people that know they are already married. How can I decline since I do not want to be apart of this farce she's putting on for the money and gifts she "missed out" on? 

cookie0803

melaniejames517 said:

Happy I found this feed. Just received a call from my friend who had a JP Ceremony and now wants "the real deal". I am one of four people that know they are already married. How can I decline since I do not want to be apart of this farce she's putting on for the money and gifts she "missed out" on? 

When you receive the invitation, mark the option on the RSVP card that indicates you will not be attending. If she asks in person, say you're unable to attend. Whether or not you tell her the real reason why is up to you.

melaniejames517

@cookie0803

Sorry I forgot to mention she asked for me to be in the wedding as her maid of honor. 

cookie0803

@melaniejames517, oops, sorry! Again, though, it's your decision how honest you want to be. You could simply decline by saying you don't have the time, don't have the funds, or some other excuse as to why you can't or don't want to be a brides(wifes)maid.


Or you could be completely honest and tell her that you're uncomfortable with the idea of being in a bridal party when there's no actual bride, and you are bothered by her dishonesty.

Jells2dot0

melaniejames517 said:

Happy I found this feed. Just received a call from my friend who had a JP Ceremony and now wants "the real deal". I am one of four people that know they are already married. How can I decline since I do not want to be apart of this farce she's putting on for the money and gifts she "missed out" on? 

Yikes! I'm glad you found this too I would just tell her that you are confused as to why she needs a maid of honor when she already had a wedding and is a wife. Maybe then try to stress the point that she should wait to have a vow renewal during a prime anniversary (10 years, 20 years, etc) since her wedding was just so recent. You could also just convince her to have the reception, though term it "celebration of marriage". She can have an awesome party and not wear the big gown, recite vows, do tosses, etc. There is NOTHING wrong with hosting a party to celebrate a milestone in life!

edit- added more

melaniejames517

OK thanks. I just want to be sure it's not absolutely awful to lie and say I won't have the funds since it's so soon after my own wedding.

cookie0803

I don't think that would be awful at all. I mean, is it really a lie? Do you have funds that you specifically want to dedicate to a fake wedding? I could be the richest woman in the world and still wouldn't have the funds for that.

mrs4everhart

melaniejames517 said:

OK thanks. I just want to be sure it's not absolutely awful to lie and say I won't have the funds since it's so soon after my own wedding.

So you're put off by what you consider her "dishonesty," but you're going to lie to her? Makes perfect sense. No, if you're going to sit in judgement of her personal decisions, tell her. This thread is full of honesty-as-the-best-policy blather, give her the option to understand your sanctimony.  Or be happy for your friend and get over yourself. 

Jells2dot0

STBMrsEverhart said:

melaniejames517 said:

OK thanks. I just want to be sure it's not absolutely awful to lie and say I won't have the funds since it's so soon after my own wedding.

So you're put off by what you consider her "dishonesty," but you're going to lie to her? Makes perfect sense. No, if you're going to sit in judgement of her personal decisions, tell her. This thread is full of honesty-as-the-best-policy blather, give her the option to understand your sanctimony.  Or be happy for your friend and get over yourself. 

I think the OP's friend needs to get over herself. She chose to have a JOP wedding but that wasn't good enough. You know the speil by now, STB. I, at least, gave advice that did not include lying.

mrs4everhart

Jells2dot0 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

melaniejames517 said:

OK thanks. I just want to be sure it's not absolutely awful to lie and say I won't have the funds since it's so soon after my own wedding.

So you're put off by what you consider her "dishonesty," but you're going to lie to her? Makes perfect sense. No, if you're going to sit in judgement of her personal decisions, tell her. This thread is full of honesty-as-the-best-policy blather, give her the option to understand your sanctimony.  Or be happy for your friend and get over yourself. 

I think the OP's friend needs to get over herself. She chose to have a JOP wedding but that wasn't good enough. You know the speil by now, STB. I, at least, gave advice that did not include lying.

To the bold - well, then you're at least consistent. 

Simply Fated

STBMrsEverhart said:

Jells2dot0 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

melaniejames517 said:

OK thanks. I just want to be sure it's not absolutely awful to lie and say I won't have the funds since it's so soon after my own wedding.

So you're put off by what you consider her "dishonesty," but you're going to lie to her? Makes perfect sense. No, if you're going to sit in judgement of her personal decisions, tell her. This thread is full of honesty-as-the-best-policy blather, give her the option to understand your sanctimony.  Or be happy for your friend and get over yourself. 

I think the OP's friend needs to get over herself. She chose to have a JOP wedding but that wasn't good enough. You know the speil by now, STB. I, at least, gave advice that did not include lying.

To the bold - well, then you're at least consistent. 

Speaking of lying... are you still going ahead with lying to your guests?

MobKaz

Simply Fated said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

Jells2dot0 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

melaniejames517 said:

OK thanks. I just want to be sure it's not absolutely awful to lie and say I won't have the funds since it's so soon after my own wedding.

So you're put off by what you consider her "dishonesty," but you're going to lie to her? Makes perfect sense. No, if you're going to sit in judgement of her personal decisions, tell her. This thread is full of honesty-as-the-best-policy blather, give her the option to understand your sanctimony.  Or be happy for your friend and get over yourself. 

I think the OP's friend needs to get over herself. She chose to have a JOP wedding but that wasn't good enough. You know the speil by now, STB. I, at least, gave advice that did not include lying.

To the bold - well, then you're at least consistent. 

Speaking of lying... are you still going ahead with lying to your guests?

She..........named doesn't lie, remember?  She is economical with the truth.  She saves friends and family from unnecessary and irrelevant information.  She helps them become "one" with the moment.  She does not have guests, they are patsies.