Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

kitsunegari89

When I was a noob, I was overjoyed to come on here and have my wedding issues analyzed by more experienced women. What good would talking to other noobs do me?

"Gee, I dunno! I'm getting married in three months! I'll let you know how it turns out!" (???)

Just saying...

karimichele

Schatzi13 said:

karimichele13 said:

So I took a poll at work today. I work with a LOT of women. No one had ever heard of a PPD and no one said that they would care.

I'm curious as to where PPD came from and when it became part of etiquette because no one, including my wedding planner SIL had heard of it.

Actually, one person had been to several PPDs and said they were the most fun weddings she had been so. (Side note- PPDs are EXTREMELY common if one person isn't American, and people usually don't advertise it so people won't think they're using their spouse for a green card)

Anyways, I'm really curious, when did this become a thing?

I'm not completely sure what you mean here.

Response to possibility 1: If "not advertise it" means they aren't telling people they're married, then I'd like to note that part of the "bona fide marriage" that GC couples must show is socially presenting as a married couple. (I suppose, if people think you're dating/engaged, you might be able to fake in your evidence that people think you're married. Lying to immigration authorities might not be a good idea.)

If "not advertise it" means they aren't actively telling people how one partner entered the US because they think it will activate the "mail order bride" stereotype, that's their choice, but what does it have to do with the wedding?

Response to possibility 2: If these people are marrying in countries where there is a legal separation of civil and religious ceremonies, they are (probably) not having PPDs. Instead, they are having two ceremonies as mandated by law. Example: H and I had one religious-and-legal ceremony in the US. Had we married in his country, we would have gone to the registration office (with our immediate families) on, say, Friday for the civil ceremony, then done the religious ceremony (with our guests) on, say, Saturday.

What I was referring to really applies to people who have had visa issues (ie temporary work visa expiring, unable to obtain a work visa etc) where people have chosen to quickly get married and have a wedding later and don't really want to have to explain that to a judgmental aunt. Yes, lying is poor etiquette but I'd rather lie to family than to the immigration.

It someone enters the country to get married (ie the mail order bride visa), you must get married within 90 days of entering the country. Although it may be very possible to put together a wedding in 3 months on the government's time frame, coordinating time off from work and travel for family members is infinitely more difficult.

When faced with the decision to marry the person they love on the spot versus waiting without actually knowing when they see their loved one again, most people I have known have chosen to get married quietly and have a "PPD". Maybe it's just me but I can see why someone wouldn't want to tell everyone this.

The other big "PPD" situation I've been is couples who in the midst of planning a wedding get pregnant and get up getting married prior to the wedding. Again, I know several of these couples and no one really cared. I guess I'm just confused as to how it's really any of anyone's business and why people care so much.... although I do feel much better knowing that I have been unable to find anyone I know who would care

lightningsnow

karimichele13 said:

Schatzi13 said:

karimichele13 said:

So I took a poll at work today. I work with a LOT of women. No one had ever heard of a PPD and no one said that they would care.

I'm curious as to where PPD came from and when it became part of etiquette because no one, including my wedding planner SIL had heard of it.

Actually, one person had been to several PPDs and said they were the most fun weddings she had been so. (Side note- PPDs are EXTREMELY common if one person isn't American, and people usually don't advertise it so people won't think they're using their spouse for a green card)

Anyways, I'm really curious, when did this become a thing?

I'm not completely sure what you mean here.

Response to possibility 1: If "not advertise it" means they aren't telling people they're married, then I'd like to note that part of the "bona fide marriage" that GC couples must show is socially presenting as a married couple. (I suppose, if people think you're dating/engaged, you might be able to fake in your evidence that people think you're married. Lying to immigration authorities might not be a good idea.)

If "not advertise it" means they aren't actively telling people how one partner entered the US because they think it will activate the "mail order bride" stereotype, that's their choice, but what does it have to do with the wedding?

Response to possibility 2: If these people are marrying in countries where there is a legal separation of civil and religious ceremonies, they are (probably) not having PPDs. Instead, they are having two ceremonies as mandated by law. Example: H and I had one religious-and-legal ceremony in the US. Had we married in his country, we would have gone to the registration office (with our immediate families) on, say, Friday for the civil ceremony, then done the religious ceremony (with our guests) on, say, Saturday.

What I was referring to really applies to people who have had visa issues (ie temporary work visa expiring, unable to obtain a work visa etc) where people have chosen to quickly get married and have a wedding later and don't really want to have to explain that to a judgmental aunt. Yes, lying is poor etiquette but I'd rather lie to family than to the immigration.

It someone enters the country to get married (ie the mail order bride visa), you must get married within 90 days of entering the country. Although it may be very possible to put together a wedding in 3 months on the government's time frame, coordinating time off from work and travel for family members is infinitely more difficult.

When faced with the decision to marry the person they love on the spot versus waiting without actually knowing when they see their loved one again, most people I have known have chosen to get married quietly and have a "PPD". Maybe it's just me but I can see why someone wouldn't want to tell everyone this.

The other big "PPD" situation I've been is couples who in the midst of planning a wedding get pregnant and get up getting married prior to the wedding. Again, I know several of these couples and no one really cared. I guess I'm just confused as to how it's really any of anyone's business and why people care so much.... although I do feel much better knowing that I have been unable to find anyone I know who would care

My cousin met and fell in love with his wife while she was here on a work visa. When it was expiring, they made the adult decision to have a small wedding in my aunt's backyard with just aunts and uncles. They have not and will not have another "wedding" just because they made that decision. The same goes for my brother who met his wife while stationed in Germany. They had a quick and small wedding with just the two of them in a courthouse so that when he returned home, she could come with him. Again, they did not and will not have another "wedding" because of that.

Not everyone who is in these positions make these incredibly rude and selfish decisions. When you make adult decisions, you have to live with the consequences of those decisions, regardless of how your family feels about it.

JCbride2015

lightningsnow said:

karimichele13 said:

Schatzi13 said:

karimichele13 said:

So I took a poll at work today. I work with a LOT of women. No one had ever heard of a PPD and no one said that they would care.

I'm curious as to where PPD came from and when it became part of etiquette because no one, including my wedding planner SIL had heard of it.

Actually, one person had been to several PPDs and said they were the most fun weddings she had been so. (Side note- PPDs are EXTREMELY common if one person isn't American, and people usually don't advertise it so people won't think they're using their spouse for a green card)

Anyways, I'm really curious, when did this become a thing?

I'm not completely sure what you mean here.

Response to possibility 1: If "not advertise it" means they aren't telling people they're married, then I'd like to note that part of the "bona fide marriage" that GC couples must show is socially presenting as a married couple. (I suppose, if people think you're dating/engaged, you might be able to fake in your evidence that people think you're married. Lying to immigration authorities might not be a good idea.)

If "not advertise it" means they aren't actively telling people how one partner entered the US because they think it will activate the "mail order bride" stereotype, that's their choice, but what does it have to do with the wedding?

Response to possibility 2: If these people are marrying in countries where there is a legal separation of civil and religious ceremonies, they are (probably) not having PPDs. Instead, they are having two ceremonies as mandated by law. Example: H and I had one religious-and-legal ceremony in the US. Had we married in his country, we would have gone to the registration office (with our immediate families) on, say, Friday for the civil ceremony, then done the religious ceremony (with our guests) on, say, Saturday.

What I was referring to really applies to people who have had visa issues (ie temporary work visa expiring, unable to obtain a work visa etc) where people have chosen to quickly get married and have a wedding later and don't really want to have to explain that to a judgmental aunt. Yes, lying is poor etiquette but I'd rather lie to family than to the immigration.

It someone enters the country to get married (ie the mail order bride visa), you must get married within 90 days of entering the country. Although it may be very possible to put together a wedding in 3 months on the government's time frame, coordinating time off from work and travel for family members is infinitely more difficult.

When faced with the decision to marry the person they love on the spot versus waiting without actually knowing when they see their loved one again, most people I have known have chosen to get married quietly and have a "PPD". Maybe it's just me but I can see why someone wouldn't want to tell everyone this.

The other big "PPD" situation I've been is couples who in the midst of planning a wedding get pregnant and get up getting married prior to the wedding. Again, I know several of these couples and no one really cared. I guess I'm just confused as to how it's really any of anyone's business and why people care so much.... although I do feel much better knowing that I have been unable to find anyone I know who would care

My cousin met and fell in love with his wife while she was here on a work visa. When it was expiring, they made the adult decision to have a small wedding in my aunt's backyard with just aunts and uncles. They have not and will not have another "wedding" just because they made that decision. The same goes for my brother who met his wife while stationed in Germany. They had a quick and small wedding with just the two of them in a courthouse so that when he returned home, she could come with him. Again, they did not and will not have another "wedding" because of that.

Not everyone who is in these positions make these incredibly rude and selfish decisions. When you make adult decisions, you have to live with the consequences of those decisions, regardless of how your family feels about it.

@lightningsnow is right.  It's just an adult decision you have to make.  Everyone has certain pro's and cons when setting a wedding date and planning.  This is just one big entry in the column to get married sooner.

And if you really want to get married quick and have the big celebration later-- go ahead!  The point of this thread is just don't re-enact your ceremony, because that becomes a performance, not a wedding.  A wedding is when two people are wed.  If you're already wed, you can't have a wedding.  What can you have?  A celebration of the marriage.  Don't lie.  Just invite everyone to a "celebration of our marriage," have a big huge party, and have a great time.  This isn't really hard.

Jells2dot0

I have two main issues with PPDs:

 

1) Lying. There is never a need to lie to the people who you love and/or care about. It's mean, disrespectful, and obviously an etiquette no-no. Life is full of crappy circumstances, so if you do need to "marry early", just tell people. People will understand. You can still have a super fancy party (not re-enactment) to celebrate and the people who understand will be there ready to celebrate with you. If they don't understand, then you just need to move on from it.

2) There is nothing wrong with a small wedding. Nothing at all. People do it by choice, actually. I cannot stand people who think smaller, intimate, private, or JOP weddings don't count. So, if you're having a PPD, and it's because your JOP wedding wasn't "good enough" and now you have money to spend, or you can't stand to live without your "dream wedding", that gets one million percent side-eyed by me. If you want to throw a kick ass anniversary party now that you have cash with no re-enactment/re-do , that sounds awesome and fun!

 

So, people, stop lying and stop discounting smaller/simple weddings!!!

edit- spelling

kitsunegari89

JCBride2014 said:

lightningsnow said:

karimichele13 said:

Schatzi13 said:

karimichele13 said:

So I took a poll at work today. I work with a LOT of women. No one had ever heard of a PPD and no one said that they would care.

I'm curious as to where PPD came from and when it became part of etiquette because no one, including my wedding planner SIL had heard of it.

Actually, one person had been to several PPDs and said they were the most fun weddings she had been so. (Side note- PPDs are EXTREMELY common if one person isn't American, and people usually don't advertise it so people won't think they're using their spouse for a green card)

Anyways, I'm really curious, when did this become a thing?

I'm not completely sure what you mean here.

Response to possibility 1: If "not advertise it" means they aren't telling people they're married, then I'd like to note that part of the "bona fide marriage" that GC couples must show is socially presenting as a married couple. (I suppose, if people think you're dating/engaged, you might be able to fake in your evidence that people think you're married. Lying to immigration authorities might not be a good idea.)

If "not advertise it" means they aren't actively telling people how one partner entered the US because they think it will activate the "mail order bride" stereotype, that's their choice, but what does it have to do with the wedding?

Response to possibility 2: If these people are marrying in countries where there is a legal separation of civil and religious ceremonies, they are (probably) not having PPDs. Instead, they are having two ceremonies as mandated by law. Example: H and I had one religious-and-legal ceremony in the US. Had we married in his country, we would have gone to the registration office (with our immediate families) on, say, Friday for the civil ceremony, then done the religious ceremony (with our guests) on, say, Saturday.

What I was referring to really applies to people who have had visa issues (ie temporary work visa expiring, unable to obtain a work visa etc) where people have chosen to quickly get married and have a wedding later and don't really want to have to explain that to a judgmental aunt. Yes, lying is poor etiquette but I'd rather lie to family than to the immigration.

It someone enters the country to get married (ie the mail order bride visa), you must get married within 90 days of entering the country. Although it may be very possible to put together a wedding in 3 months on the government's time frame, coordinating time off from work and travel for family members is infinitely more difficult.

When faced with the decision to marry the person they love on the spot versus waiting without actually knowing when they see their loved one again, most people I have known have chosen to get married quietly and have a "PPD". Maybe it's just me but I can see why someone wouldn't want to tell everyone this.

The other big "PPD" situation I've been is couples who in the midst of planning a wedding get pregnant and get up getting married prior to the wedding. Again, I know several of these couples and no one really cared. I guess I'm just confused as to how it's really any of anyone's business and why people care so much.... although I do feel much better knowing that I have been unable to find anyone I know who would care

My cousin met and fell in love with his wife while she was here on a work visa. When it was expiring, they made the adult decision to have a small wedding in my aunt's backyard with just aunts and uncles. They have not and will not have another "wedding" just because they made that decision. The same goes for my brother who met his wife while stationed in Germany. They had a quick and small wedding with just the two of them in a courthouse so that when he returned home, she could come with him. Again, they did not and will not have another "wedding" because of that.

Not everyone who is in these positions make these incredibly rude and selfish decisions. When you make adult decisions, you have to live with the consequences of those decisions, regardless of how your family feels about it.

@lightningsnow is right.  It's just an adult decision you have to make.  Everyone has certain pro's and cons when setting a wedding date and planning.  This is just one big entry in the column to get married sooner.

And if you really want to get married quick and have the big celebration later-- go ahead!  The point of this thread is just don't re-enact your ceremony, because that becomes a performance, not a wedding.  A wedding is when two people are wed.  If you're already wed, you can't have a wedding.  What can you have?  A celebration of the marriage.  Don't lie.  Just invite everyone to a "celebration of our marriage," have a big huge party, and have a great time.  This isn't really hard.

YES. HAVE A PARTY. Seriously. Parties are fine. Just don't call it a wedding, because it ain't. A wedding is a party in which two people also get married. If you're already married, it's just a party, which is fine, but everyone in attendance thinks they're seeing a wedding, which is a lie. And these things always come out. My cousin's wife is trying to do a PPD and they tried to keep it a secret from everyone, but now we all know and are pretty pissed off/hurt that they didn't at least send us an announcement. I would have bought them a gift, you know!?

dwhereicome

@ Jells2dot0

"There is nothing wrong with a small wedding. Nothing at all. People do it by choice, actually. I cannot stand people who think smaller, intimate, private, or JOP weddings don't count. So, if you're having a PPD, and it's because your JOP wedding wasn't "good enough" and now you have money to spend, or you can't stand to live without your "dream wedding", that gets one million percent side-eyed by me."

YES! You are absolutely correct. JOP weddings can be lovely and wonderful and special. My best friend had one and she loved it. I was sad that it was so small (the two of them + her brother) that I couldn't go but my happiness knowing that she got the wedding she wanted outweighed that. 

HOWEVER- not all JOPs are like that. Some are simply a filling of paperwork and involve NO VOWS! let alone a dress or anything. Therefore, many people who file marriage paperwork and still have a party later on are NOT criticizing or saying there is anything wrong with a JOP wedding- they simply haven't had one. This was the case for a friend I had who had to file paperwork due to visa issues. There was no dress, no vows. Later, infront of friends and family they said vows and celebrated. Was it a "lie"? No because they did a religious ceremony and said vows, which they did not do before. According to their religion they were not married b/c they had not been married by the celergy of their religion and their religion demands a religious contract to be signed. 

Judging by your picture, your wedding looks absolutely lovely, but many people don't have the opportunity to have anything near that special at their JOP wedding and often can't even say vows or wear a dress. 

You seem to be confusing people who want a party type wedding with people who judge/ or criticize JOP weddings. That is not true. I for one think both are lovely. I have been to several very small JOP wedding that were wonderful, special and kind and larger weddings that were also excellent. The desire to have a wedding in which you say your vows in front of family after filing marriage paperwork is not a statement that the first is insufficient or "not enough" it is simply an opportunity to say vows in front of people who are special to you. 

JCBride2014 "The point of this thread is just don't re-enact your ceremony, because that becomes a performance, not a wedding."

Refer to my point above- many people (not all) do not get the opportunity to have a ceremony at the JOP marriage. Many I know don't even get to say vows. Therefore, the wedding is not a re-enactment but a genuine opportunity to say vows.

crunchymamaof2

Like talking to a wall. And FTR just because a couple has 3 months to get married (on a fiancé visa) doesn't mean they only have 3 months to plan a wedding. Is it harder to plan with one person long distance? Sure. But that comes with the territory.

There is nothing wrong with the fancy and traditional wedding. As long as that is when you are actually getting married. It's the couples who decide you know what we like the perks of marriage but we also deserve our dream day so just do both. No doesn't work like that sorry. I'm also guessing it's Rev. Anne I believe her name is on wedding wire spreading of the bull about being a difference between marriage and the wedding. The only differences marriage is what comes after the wedding and the wedding being when 2 people become legally and possibly religiously wed.

If you want a traditional fancy wedding venue be an adult and you wait until that is possible. If for whatever reason it's not possible to wait, which there are those reasons, then you have whatever wedding you can afford and plan in the timeframe. Then feel free to plan a kickass party later on to celebrate. Just skip the ceremony reenactment. This is not a difficult concept and I'm not sure if some of you are just that thickheaded or purposely stirring the pot. And at the very least if you do feel the need to have a traditional wedding after you are already married just don't lie about it let your guests know that you are in fact already married. What is the big deal about that?

karimichele

Molly12345 said:

@ Jells2dot0

"There is nothing wrong with a small wedding. Nothing at all. People do it by choice, actually. I cannot stand people who think smaller, intimate, private, or JOP weddings don't count. So, if you're having a PPD, and it's because your JOP wedding wasn't "good enough" and now you have money to spend, or you can't stand to live without your "dream wedding", that gets one million percent side-eyed by me."

YES! You are absolutely correct. JOP weddings can be lovely and wonderful and special. My best friend had one and she loved it. I was sad that it was so small (the two of them + her brother) that I couldn't go but my happiness knowing that she got the wedding she wanted outweighed that. 

HOWEVER- not all JOPs are like that. Some are simply a filling of paperwork and involve NO VOWS! let alone a dress or anything. Therefore, many people who file marriage paperwork and still have a party later on are NOT criticizing or saying there is anything wrong with a JOP wedding- they simply haven't had one. This was the case for a friend I had who had to file paperwork due to visa issues. There was no dress, no vows. Later, infront of friends and family they said vows and celebrated. Was it a "lie"? No because they did a religious ceremony and said vows, which they did not do before. According to their religion they were not married b/c they had not been married by the celergy of their religion and their religion demands a religious contract to be signed. 

Judging by your picture, your wedding looks absolutely lovely, but many people don't have the opportunity to have anything near that special at their JOP wedding and often can't even say vows or wear a dress. 

You seem to be confusing people who want a party type wedding with people who judge/ or criticize JOP weddings. That is not true. I for one think both are lovely. I have been to several very small JOP wedding that were wonderful, special and kind and larger weddings that were also excellent. The desire to have a wedding in which you say your vows in front of family after filing marriage paperwork is not a statement that the first is insufficient or "not enough" it is simply an opportunity to say vows in front of people who are special to you. 

JCBride2014 "The point of this thread is just don't re-enact your ceremony, because that becomes a performance, not a wedding."

Refer to my point above- many people (not all) do not get the opportunity to have a ceremony at the JOP marriage. Many I know don't even get to say vows. Therefore, the wedding is not a re-enactment but a genuine opportunity to say vows.

Exactly. If people are making the effort to travel to a party I think it would be crazy to not have a ceremony because the paperwork was already signed for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure if someone who was invited was offended by this it would be friendship ending for us.

Again, the point I've been trying to make, on the very long list of things people care about in life, whether or not a couple is already married on their wedding day is NOT one of them

JCbride2015

Molly12345 said: @ Jells2dot0"There is nothing wrong with a small wedding. Nothing at all. People do it by choice, actually. I cannot stand people who think smaller, intimate, private, or JOP weddings don't count. So, if you're having a PPD, and it's because your JOP wedding wasn't "good enough" and now you have money to spend, or you can't stand to live without your "dream wedding", that gets one million percent side-eyed by me."

YES! You are absolutely correct. JOP weddings can be lovely and wonderful and special. My best friend had one and she loved it. I was sad that it was so small (the two of them + her brother) that I couldn't go but my happiness knowing that she got the wedding she wanted outweighed that. 
HOWEVER- not all JOPs are like that. Some are simply a filling of paperwork and involve NO VOWS! let alone a dress or anything. Therefore, many people who file marriage paperwork and still have a party later on are NOT criticizing or saying there is anything wrong with a JOP wedding- they simply haven't had one. This was the case for a friend I had who had to file paperwork due to visa issues. There was no dress, no vows. Later, infront of friends and family they said vows and celebrated. Was it a "lie"? No because they did a religious ceremony and said vows, which they did not do before. According to their religion they were not married b/c they had not been married by the celergy of their religion and their religion demands a religious contract to be signed. 
Judging by your picture, your wedding looks absolutely lovely, but many people don't have the opportunity to have anything near that special at their JOP wedding and often can't even say vows or wear a dress. 
You seem to be confusing people who want a party type wedding with people who judge/ or criticize JOP weddings. That is not true. I for one think both are lovely. I have been to several very small JOP wedding that were wonderful, special and kind and larger weddings that were also excellent. The desire to have a wedding in which you say your vows in front of family after filing marriage paperwork is not a statement that the first is insufficient or "not enough" it is simply an opportunity to say vows in front of people who are special to you. 
JCBride2014 "The point of this thread is just don't re-enact your ceremony, because that becomes a performance, not a wedding."
Refer to my point above- many people (not all) do not get the opportunity to have a ceremony at the JOP marriage. Many I know don't even get to say vows. Therefore, the wedding is not a re-enactment but a genuine opportunity to say vows.
------------Stupid box--------------

But you still (correctly) call the JOP ceremony, whatever it was, a marriage.  Because the two people became wed.  Whatever vows they did or did not say, whether the bride wore a dress or not (entirely her choice, btw), it was still a wedding ceremony because two people became wed.  A wedding doesn't have to involve a party.  Nobody is entitled to that. It's a wedding if you are wed at the end of the day.

If their religion is so important to them, that should've been the first priority when planning their wedding. If they had urgent needs for government benefits including citizenship, that's fine. But prioritizing those needs over religion means that you do not get your religious ceremony. Many religions, such as Catholicism, offer convalidation or other blessings of the marriage after it has happened. That's a great way to get your marriage recognized by the church. But it does not mean that you get to reenact your wedding, because you are already wed.

I find it laughable that couples will hold themselves out as married to the government, but then say they are not "really" married for religious reasons. Which is it? Don't most religions frown upon lying?  If the first ceremony was important enough that you got the benefits, then it is also important enough to acknowledge that it happened.

If what they want is to celebrate with their friends and family, just have a party.   Why is this so difficult? If you want to say vows in front of your friends and family, I'm going to think it's a little weird because you are already married. But at least be honest. Acknowledge that you got married earlier for benefits, and that you want to celebrate with your friends and family now.

JCbride2015

karimichele13 said:

Exactly. If people are making the effort to travel to a party I think it would be crazy to not have a ceremony because the paperwork was already signed for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure if someone who was invited was offended by this it would be friendship ending for us.

Again, the point I've been trying to make, on the very long list of things people care about in life, whether or not a couple is already married on their wedding day is NOT one of them

I'm pretty sure if I traveled to come to a friend's "wedding" only to find out it was a lie and you were already married, it would be friendship ending indeed.

@karimichele13 are you already married for immigration reasons?

ETA: now, if you were honest and said you were already married and I was invited to a celebration of your marriage, I would totally travel to come party with you.  But don't lie.  Your loved ones deserve better than that.

Maggie0829

Exactly. If people are making the effort to travel to a party I think it would be crazy to not have a ceremony because the paperwork was already signed for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure if someone who was invited was offended by this it would be friendship ending for us.

Again, the point I've been trying to make, on the very long list of things people care about in life, whether or not a couple is already married on their wedding day is NOT one of them

But it is and many threads on this board will show you that people do care if a couple is married when they have this pretend wedding.  Just because the small poll you took turned out in favor of PPD doesn't mean that it counts for the entire world (hopefully that was you who took the poll because I really can't remember anymore).

And why do you think you owe people a ceremony?  If people are willing to travel to a party to celebrate a marriage then they are of the knowledge that the ceremony has already occurred and that they will not be witnessing one.  So I really don't get the "but they are owed a ceremony redo because they are travelling" thought process.

karimichele

No, I actually am not.

This issue just really gets under my skin on behalf of anyone whose wedding plans are controlled by government decisions.

This conversation has really gone far more into the details of immigration than I meant it to do.

As far as people traveling for a ceremony, I was trying to look at it from a parent's point of view. Wouldn't you want to see your child exchange vows, have a first dance, etc? I know I would...

Is it really just the secrecy that's the problem? I've gotten the impression that the white dress, first dance, cutting the cake were also an issue....

chibiyui

JFC people. Just tell your guests you're married! It's not that hard

Maggie0829

karimichele13 said:

No, I actually am not.

This issue just really gets under my skin on behalf of anyone whose wedding plans are controlled by government decisions.

This conversation has really gone far more into the details of immigration than I meant it to do.

As far as people traveling for a ceremony, I was trying to look at it from a parent's point of view. Wouldn't you want to see your child exchange vows, have a first dance, etc? I know I would...

Is it really just the secrecy that's the problem? I've gotten the impression that the white dress, first dance, cutting the cake were also an issue....

As a parent I would like to see when they actual say their vows to become husband and wife, not a cheap imitation.

The secrecy is a huge problem.  But when a husband and wife play dress up and pretend that they are something that they are not (in this case married) just because they want to have that dream wedding because they weren't happy with their first choice is just down right silly and immature in my eyes.

brweddingjc

For people who are saying "have a party but don't re-do the ceremony because that's an re-enactment not the real thing", here are two of the definition of wedding:

wedding

  

noun

1.

the act or ceremony of marrying; marriage; nuptials.

2.

the anniversary of a marriage, or its celebration: They invited guests to their silver wedding.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wedding?s=t

and some of the definitions for marriage: 

marriage

 

noun

1.

(broadly) any of the diverse forms of interpersonal union established in various parts of the world to form a familial bond that is recognized legally, religiously, or socially, granting the participating partners mutual conjugal rights and responsibilities and including, for example, opposite-sexmarriage, same-sex marriage, plural marriage, and arranged marriage:, Anthropologists say that some type of marriage has been found in every known human society since ancient times.  See word Story at the current entry.

2.

a.

Also called opposite-sex marriage. the form of this institution under which a man and a woman have established their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc. See also traditional marriage (  def 2 ) .

b.

this institution expanded to include two partners of the same gender, as in same-sex marriage;gay marriage .

3.

the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: They have a happy marriage.Synonyms: matrimony. Antonyms: single life, bachelorhood, spinsterhood, singleness.

4.

the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of two people to live as a married couple,including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage. Synonyms: nuptials, marriage ceremony, wedding. Antonyms: divorce, annulment.

5.

a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage.

As you can see, a religious ceremony is not a pretend wedding. Celebration of marriage is also called a wedding. Yes, people are adults and can make decisions, they can also make a decision to have two ceremonies a legal one and a religious one, there is absolutely nothing illegal about having a legal ceremony and later on a religious one. You are also allowed to wear a wedding dress as many times as you want. You can wear it on a legal ceremony, whether you did or not, you can wear it again. You can also wear it on a vowel renewal if you want. Again there is no etiquette rule that says "if you're having a a vowel renewal, you should not wear a big white dress". There is also no etiquette rules that says "if you had a legal wedding, you should not have a big religious ceremony after, because you didn't plan to do both at the same time therefore you missed out". What I know to be etiquette is the not lying part. The so called "PPD" is not illegal and not against etiquette either (as long as you don't lie). On the other hand, if you do lie about it, it is still not against the law to not tell your friends and family you're married and is a decision only you can make and deal with the consequences of anyone who is willing to care and be mad about it. Now throw a stone anyone who has never lied. Don't get me wrong I am not encouraging, but people lie. So you might not have lied about getting married but I'm sure most if not all of people have lied at least once before, so the way I see it, is not up to me to judge. The couple is having a ceremony later because they want people they care there involved. They have they reasons they had a legal wedding later and it doesn't make it illegal or against etiquette having a religious ceremony after. And YES according to the dictionary, is still called a WEDDING, and PPD is just a stupid name.

lightningsnow

brweddingjc said:

For people who are saying "have a party but don't re-do the ceremony because that's an re-enactment not the real thing", here are two of the definition of wedding:

wedding

  

noun

1.

the act or ceremony of marrying; marriage; nuptials.

2.

the anniversary of a marriage, or its celebration: They invited guests to their silver wedding.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wedding?s=t

and some of the definitions for marriage: 

marriage

 

noun

1.

(broadly) any of the diverse forms of interpersonal union established in various parts of the world to form a familial bond that is recognized legally, religiously, or socially, granting the participating partners mutual conjugal rights and responsibilities and including, for example, opposite-sexmarriage, same-sex marriage, plural marriage, and arranged marriage:, Anthropologists say that some type of marriage has been found in every known human society since ancient times.  See word Story at the current entry.

2.

a.

Also called opposite-sex marriage. the form of this institution under which a man and a woman have established their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc. See also traditional marriage (  def 2 ) .

b.

this institution expanded to include two partners of the same gender, as in same-sex marriage;gay marriage .

3.

the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: They have a happy marriage.Synonyms: matrimony. Antonyms: single life, bachelorhood, spinsterhood, singleness.

4.

the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of two people to live as a married couple,including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage. Synonyms: nuptials, marriage ceremony, wedding. Antonyms: divorce, annulment.

5.

a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage.

As you can see, a religious ceremony is not a pretend wedding. Celebration of marriage is also called a wedding. Yes, people are adults and can make decisions, they can also make a decision to have two ceremonies a legal one and a religious one, there is absolutely nothing illegal about having a legal ceremony and later on a religious one. You are also allowed to wear a wedding dress as many times as you want. You can wear it on a legal ceremony, whether you did or not, you can wear it again. You can also wear it on a vowel renewal if you want. Again there is no etiquette rule that says "if you're having a a vowel renewal, you should not wear a big white dress". There is also no etiquette rules that says "if you had a legal wedding, you should not have a big religious ceremony after, because you didn't plan to do both at the same time therefore you missed out". What I know to be etiquette is the not lying part. The so called "PPD" is not illegal and not against etiquette either (as long as you don't lie). On the other hand, if you do lie about it, it is still not against the law to not tell your friends and family you're married and is a decision only you can make and deal with the consequences of anyone who is willing to care and be mad about it. Now throw a stone anyone who has never lied. Don't get me wrong I am not encouraging, but people lie. So you might not have lied about getting married but I'm sure most if not all of people have lied at least once before, so the way I see it, is not up to me to judge. The couple is having a ceremony later because they want people they care there involved. They have they reasons they had a legal wedding later and it doesn't make it illegal or against etiquette having a religious ceremony after. And YES according to the dictionary, is still called a WEDDING, and PPD is just a stupid name.

Any form of fraud is illegal, including insurance fraud, which you are committing if you lie at all about your martial status, regardless if it is to friends and family.

Jesus H. Christ, there is no reason to have two separate ceremonies in the United States as both are legal binding. If you didn't think about it when you got civilly married, that is your problem to fix. Most Catholic churches will not marry you unless you are not married, if that makes any sense. Lying is a huge sin in that religion. You do not get to bend the rules and facts because you wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

I'll give you an example. Come October I will no longer be on my parents insurance. My employer does not offer insurance but my BF's does. I am going to do the adult thing and find my own insurance rather than rush into a marriage nether of us is ready for and then a few years down the line have our real "wedding". Honestly, it's not that freaking difficult to be a damn adult!

JCbride2015

brweddingjc said:

For people who are saying "have a party but don't re-do the ceremony because that's an re-enactment not the real thing", here are two of the definition of wedding:

wedding

  

noun

1.

the act or ceremony of marrying; marriage; nuptials.

2.

the anniversary of a marriage, or its celebration: They invited guests to their silver wedding.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wedding?s=t

and some of the definitions for marriage: 

marriage

 

noun

1.

(broadly) any of the diverse forms of interpersonal union established in various parts of the world to form a familial bond that is recognized legally, religiously, or socially, granting the participating partners mutual conjugal rights and responsibilities and including, for example, opposite-sexmarriage, same-sex marriage, plural marriage, and arranged marriage:, Anthropologists say that some type of marriage has been found in every known human society since ancient times.  See word Story at the current entry.

2.

a.

Also called opposite-sex marriage. the form of this institution under which a man and a woman have established their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc. See also traditional marriage (  def 2 ) .

b.

this institution expanded to include two partners of the same gender, as in same-sex marriage;gay marriage .

3.

the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: They have a happy marriage.Synonyms: matrimony. Antonyms: single life, bachelorhood, spinsterhood, singleness.

4.

the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of two people to live as a married couple,including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage. Synonyms: nuptials, marriage ceremony, wedding. Antonyms: divorce, annulment.

5.

a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage.

As you can see, a religious ceremony is not a pretend wedding. Celebration of marriage is also called a wedding. Yes, people are adults and can make decisions, they can also make a decision to have two ceremonies a legal one and a religious one, there is absolutely nothing illegal about having a legal ceremony and later on a religious one. You are also allowed to wear a wedding dress as many times as you want. You can wear it on a legal ceremony, whether you did or not, you can wear it again. You can also wear it on a vowel renewal if you want. Again there is no etiquette rule that says "if you're having a a vowel renewal, you should not wear a big white dress". There is also no etiquette rules that says "if you had a legal wedding, you should not have a big religious ceremony after, because you didn't plan to do both at the same time therefore you missed out". What I know to be etiquette is the not lying part. The so called "PPD" is not illegal and not against etiquette either (as long as you don't lie). On the other hand, if you do lie about it, it is still not against the law to not tell your friends and family you're married and is a decision only you can make and deal with the consequences of anyone who is willing to care and be mad about it. Now throw a stone anyone who has never lied. Don't get me wrong I am not encouraging, but people lie. So you might not have lied about getting married but I'm sure most if not all of people have lied at least once before, so the way I see it, is not up to me to judge. The couple is having a ceremony later because they want people they care there involved. They have they reasons they had a legal wedding later and it doesn't make it illegal or against etiquette having a religious ceremony after. And YES according to the dictionary, is still called a WEDDING, and PPD is just a stupid name.

If you had bothered to read the thread in its entirety (or do a search for "definition," I get it's a long thread) you would see this tired argument has been trotted out again and again, and has been rebutted again and again.

Red bolded: you're right, it is not illegal.  It is simply rude.

Blue bolded: this made me giggle.

Green bolded: well... yes indeed there is.  Miss Manners is the best-recognized etiquette source.  Here's what she has to say:

Dear Miss Manners:

My boyfriend and I need to get legally married now for immigration purposes in order to stay in the same country after I graduate medical school.  We cannot afford a wedding right now and the timing is bad because of intense medical school schedule.

For the two of us, this civil marriage feels like our engagement. We would also like our family and friends to see the wedding is meaningful, when we do have the "real" ceremony in a year or so. However, we didn't want to keep such a serious decision from our parents, who are traditional and upset about the split set up.

What should we tell friends who kindly inquire about our future plans and engagement status? What should we ask our parents to say when faced with the same questions? I dislike lying, but I also feel that this is private information.

GENTLE READER:

We can only hope that your reluctance to face the facts and your conviction that you can manipulate reality and suppress inconvenient information will not carry over to your medical career.

Miss Manners is aware that many couples have now separated getting married from what they are pleased to call "having the wedding." They throw a party at another time, which would be fine in itself, but they include a fake ceremony, as if that made it as important an occasion as the real thing.

That Miss Manners is not the only person who considers this fraudulent is evident from the realization that your guests will not find the rewrite is meaningful is actually witnessing your marriage. And you cannot make your legal marriage into an engagement by declaring it so. Rather than tangle yourself further in this deception, Miss Manners recommends admitting to your friends and family that you are married but that you will be inviting them to a delayed celebration later.

Edited for Dragon Dictation autocorrect.

brweddingjc

lightningsnow said:

....

Any form of fraud is illegal, including insurance fraud, which you are committing if you lie at all about your martial status, regardless if it is to friends and family.

I'm sorry, I'm not from the US, I am not telling people to commit fraud and/or lie to the government, where Im from I still cannot lie to the government but I don't have to tell family and friends if I choose not to.

Jesus H. Christ, there is no reason to have two separate ceremonies in the United States as both are legal binding. If you didn't think about it when you got civilly married, that is your problem to fix. Most Catholic churches will not marry you unless you are not married, if that makes any sense. Lying is a huge sin in that religion. You do not get to bend the rules and facts because you wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I'm not from the US, in fact outside US, many catholic churches will not marry you if you are not legally married. and you have to sign the papers before your religious ceremony anyway. 

I'll give you an example. Come October I will no longer be on my parents insurance. My employer does not offer insurance but my BF's does. I am going to do the adult thing and find my own insurance rather than rush into a marriage nether of us is ready for and then a few years down the line have our real "wedding". Honestly, it's not that freaking difficult to be a damn adult!

There is nothing less adult about signing papers before and having a religious ceremony after.  here is nothing illegal about it as long as you don't lie to the government about it (I wont comment about omitting to friends and family cause I don't know the law there). It is only an adult decision that is different than yours

There is nothing illegal about putting on a white dress, having a cake, repeating your vows in the presence of a priest. Some people even do it two different ceremonies for two different religious for example. Like an Indian-Italian couple for example may have an hindu ceremony and an catholic one. If they want to repeat their vows, they're allowed (is not wrong, nor illegal).

Jen4948

brweddingjc said:

lightningsnow said:

....

Any form of fraud is illegal, including insurance fraud, which you are committing if you lie at all about your martial status, regardless if it is to friends and family.

I'm sorry, I'm not from the US, I am not telling people to commit fraud and/or lie to the government, where Im from I still cannot lie to the government but I don't have to tell family and friends if I choose not to.

Jesus H. Christ, there is no reason to have two separate ceremonies in the United States as both are legal binding. If you didn't think about it when you got civilly married, that is your problem to fix. Most Catholic churches will not marry you unless you are not married, if that makes any sense. Lying is a huge sin in that religion. You do not get to bend the rules and facts because you wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I'm not from the US, in fact outside US, many catholic churches will not marry you if you are not legally married. and you have to sign the papers before your religious ceremony anyway. 

I'll give you an example. Come October I will no longer be on my parents insurance. My employer does not offer insurance but my BF's does. I am going to do the adult thing and find my own insurance rather than rush into a marriage nether of us is ready for and then a few years down the line have our real "wedding". Honestly, it's not that freaking difficult to be a damn adult!

There is nothing less adult about signing papers before and having a religious ceremony after.  here is nothing illegal about it as long as you don't lie to the government about it (I wont comment about omitting to friends and family cause I don't know the law there). It is only an adult decision that is different than yours

There is nothing illegal about putting on a white dress, having a cake, repeating your vows in the presence of a priest. Some people even do it two different ceremonies for two different religious for example. Like an Indian-Italian couple for example may have an hindu ceremony and an catholic one. If they want to repeat their vows, they're allowed (is not wrong, nor illegal).

While none of that may be illegal, this is a mostly North American board, and what you propose does violate North American etiquette.  This is about etiquette-not whether or not it breaks any law.  Sometimes things that are not illegal do violate etiquette, and we are not going to endorse them.

JCbride2015

@brweddingjc Now knowing that you are not from North America, this makes some more sense.  Many other countries do indeed require a separate legal and religious ceremony.  In the US and Canada, though, the religious ceremony is also legally binding.  Therefore, one ceremony is all you need.

brweddingjc

JCBride2014 said:

...

If you had bothered to read the thread in its entirety (or do a search for "definition," I get it's a long thread) you would see this tired argument has been trotted out again and again, and has been rebutted again and again.

I have read the entire thread.

Red bolded: you're right, it is not illegal.  It is simply rude. 

Not in my opinion and many other people's opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Blue bolded: this made me giggle. 

Well I would edit it, but that would just be more embarrassing. Yes, I know is vows, I made a mistake, sorry. People make occasion writing mistakes, specially when is late and English is their second language.

Green bolded: well... yes indeed there is.  Miss Manners is the best-recognized etiquette source.  Here's what she has to say:

Dear Miss Manners:

My boyfriend and I need to get legally married now for immigration purposes in order to stay in the same country after I graduate medical school.  We cannot afford a wedding right now and the timing is bad because of intense medical school schedule.

For the two of us, this civil marriage feels like our engagement. We would also like our family and friends to see the wedding is meaningful, when we do have the "real" ceremony in a year or so. However, we didn't want to keep such a serious decision from our parents, who are traditional and upset about the split set up.

What should we tell friends who kindly inquire about our future plans and engagement status? What should we ask our parents to say when faced with the same questions? I dislike lying, but I also feel that this is private information.

GENTLE READER:

We can only hope that your reluctance to face the facts and your conviction that you can manipulate reality and suppress inconvenient information will not carry over to your medical career.

Miss Manners is aware that many couples have now separated getting married from what they are pleased to call "having the wedding." They throw a party at another time, which would be fine in itself, but they include a fake ceremony, as if that made it as important an occasion as the real thing.

That Miss Manners is not the only person who considers this fraudulent is evident from the realization that your guests will not find the rewrite is meaningful is actually witnessing your marriage. And you cannot make your legal marriage into an engagement by declaring it so. Rather than tangle yourself further in this deception, Miss Manners recommends admitting to your friends and family that you are married but that you will be inviting them to a delayed celebration later.

Edited for Dragon Dictation autocorrect.

Well according to the dictionary a religious ceremony is also called a wedding! Also, on my first post on this thread I commented on the definition of etiquette and how that can differ based on people's background and other factors, even within the same country, you should read it! Is the first post on page 34 if I'm not mistaken!

brweddingjc

JCBride2014 said:

@brweddingjc Now knowing that you are not from North America, this makes some more sense.  Many other countries do indeed require a separate legal and religious ceremony.  In the US and Canada, though, the religious ceremony is also legally binding.  Therefore, one ceremony is all you need.

I'm aware it is not required in US to have separate ones, but I still don't see the problem of doing so if people prefer, there are many different circumstances and other than the lying which I can understand people not appreciating (although I honestly don't mind about it), I don't see the issue. I don't think is immature, is just a decision they made that's different than yours. As long they are not breaking any laws, to me they should do what makes them happy. And to a lot of people sharing that moment with family and friends is a big deal, and in my opinion they can do that whenever they want.

JCbride2015

brweddingjc said: JCBride2014 said: @brweddingjc Now knowing that you are not from North America, this makes some more sense.  Many other countries do indeed require a separate legal and religious ceremony.  In the US and Canada, though, the religious ceremony is also legally binding.  Therefore, one ceremony is all you need. I'm aware it is not required in US to have separate ones, but I still don't see the problem of doing so if people prefer, there are many different circumstances and other than the lying which I can understand people not appreciating (although I honestly don't mind about it), I don't see the issue. I don't think is immature, is just a decision they made that's different than yours. As long they are not breaking any laws, to me they should do what makes them happy. And to a lot of people sharing that moment with family and friends is a big deal, and in my opinion they can do that whenever they want.
-----Ahhh stuck in the Goddamn box-------


Sure, you can have whatever opinion you want.  But North American etiquette is not a matter of opinion.  It's just the way it is, and if one wants to follow etiquette when hosting guests, re-enacting a wedding that already happened is simply rude.  Can you do it? Of course, nobody's going to stop you.  Will everyone be offended?  Some people actually might not mind, and in fact some TK regs don't really mind as long as they aren't lied to.  But it's still objectively against etiquette.

brweddingjc

@JCBride2014

Re-reading my post, I noticed it sounds a bit angry, or maybe aggressive (some parts), sorry I didn't mean to. I'm all for different opinions and arguments and don't mean to sound rude at all! 

JCbride2015

brweddingjc said:

@JCBride2014

Re-reading my post, I noticed it sounds a bit angry, or maybe aggressive (some parts), sorry I didn't mean to. I'm all for different opinions and arguments and don't mean to sound rude at all! 

No worries.  I've seen much worse here lol!

lightningsnow

brweddingjc said:

lightningsnow said:

....

Any form of fraud is illegal, including insurance fraud, which you are committing if you lie at all about your martial status, regardless if it is to friends and family.

I'm sorry, I'm not from the US, I am not telling people to commit fraud and/or lie to the government, where Im from I still cannot lie to the government but I don't have to tell family and friends if I choose not to.

Jesus H. Christ, there is no reason to have two separate ceremonies in the United States as both are legal binding. If you didn't think about it when you got civilly married, that is your problem to fix. Most Catholic churches will not marry you unless you are not married, if that makes any sense. Lying is a huge sin in that religion. You do not get to bend the rules and facts because you wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

Again, I'm not from the US, in fact outside US, many catholic churches will not marry you if you are not legally married. and you have to sign the papers before your religious ceremony anyway. 

I'll give you an example. Come October I will no longer be on my parents insurance. My employer does not offer insurance but my BF's does. I am going to do the adult thing and find my own insurance rather than rush into a marriage nether of us is ready for and then a few years down the line have our real "wedding". Honestly, it's not that freaking difficult to be a damn adult!

There is nothing less adult about signing papers before and having a religious ceremony after.  here is nothing illegal about it as long as you don't lie to the government about it (I wont comment about omitting to friends and family cause I don't know the law there). It is only an adult decision that is different than yours

There is nothing illegal about putting on a white dress, having a cake, repeating your vows in the presence of a priest. Some people even do it two different ceremonies for two different religious for example. Like an Indian-Italian couple for example may have an hindu ceremony and an catholic one. If they want to repeat their vows, they're allowed (is not wrong, nor illegal).

I apologize as I was not aware you were not from the US. However, this thread is aimed at those brides living in the US. We are all aware that in other countries you must have two separate ceremonies. That is not the case here in the US. We are trying to educate brides about the faux pas of this here.

Also, a marriage is public knowledge as the marriage license needs to be filed with the government. It would not take someone very long to find a signed marriage license for you. I never understand people who decide to lie to friends and family over something so huge. If I did that, my mother would either kick my ass or never speak with me again.

MobKaz

karimichele13 said:

No, I actually am not.

This issue just really gets under my skin on behalf of anyone whose wedding plans are controlled by government decisions.

This conversation has really gone far more into the details of immigration than I meant it to do.

As far as people traveling for a ceremony, I was trying to look at it from a parent's point of view. Wouldn't you want to see your child exchange vows, have a first dance, etc? I know I would...

Is it really just the secrecy that's the problem? I've gotten the impression that the white dress, first dance, cutting the cake were also an issue....

More often than not, the people engaging in PPD's are doing so because they secretly wed to obtain government benefits only afforded married couples.  The government may have provisions to their benefits, but it is the couple that controls the choices.  They DO have options, including truth.

Jells2dot0

If someone finds out they need insurance, or their sig other is deploying, or some other need arises, it is possible to plan a more traditional wedding in a short time. It might not be ideal, meaning maybe Aunt Sue won't be able to attend, or maybe your top choice venue is booked, but think outside of the box! Check with your VIPs and plan from there. Given the circumstances, I'm sure your VIPs will gather on a Thursday evening for a nice ceremony in a backyard or local hall followed by a nice dinner at a local fancy restaurant. Perhaps you have to buy a dress off of the rack *gasp!* but you'll have a wedding dress. Maybe the cake is from Kroger *double gasp!* but you'll have cake. At the end of it, you have your closest loved ones present, you exchange vows, you'll be legally married at the time of the ceremony, and you got to wear a wedding gown! All without lying, offending, and breaching etiquette!

crunchymamaof2

Jells2dot0 said:

If someone finds out they need insurance, or their sig other is deploying, or some other need arises, it is possible to plan a more traditional wedding in a short time. It might not be ideal, meaning maybe Aunt Sue won't be able to attend, or maybe your top choice venue is booked, but think outside of the box! Check with your VIPs and plan from there. Given the circumstances, I'm sure your VIPs will gather on a Thursday evening for a nice ceremony in a backyard or local hall followed by a nice dinner at a local fancy restaurant. Perhaps you have to buy a dress off of the rack *gasp!* but you'll have a wedding dress. Maybe the cake is from Kroger *double gasp!* but you'll have cake. At the end of it, you have your closest loved ones present, you exchange vows, you'll be legally married at the time of the ceremony, and you got to wear a wedding gown! All without lying, offending, and beaching etiquette!

If it were truly about sharing the moment with loved ones this would be the perfect idea. But I think most of us here know that that's just an excuse for many. It's not about the loved ones being present, it's about dressing up and having your dream wedding. What a sad state were in that the frills have become more important than the moment.