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Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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Re: Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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    dwhereicomedwhereicome member
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    Wow! You seem so angry. I wonder why? 

    Anyway  - Like I said for many (NOT all) couples its NOT A REENACTMENT ceremony because they never had a ceremony... 

    But you know what? I'm just going to be happy and supportive of whatever decisions my friends make. If my friends need to file paperwork and then want to say vows in front of me, I will be happy for them and honored to be invited. Maybe one day you can try to be happy for others as well. Its quite liberating to get all that anger out and focus on the positive. 
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    Jells2dot0Jells2dot0 mod
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    edited May 2014
    Molly12345 said:
    Wow! You seem so angry. I wonder why? 

    Anyway  - Like I said for many (NOT all) couples its NOT A REENACTMENT ceremony because they never had a ceremony... 

    But you know what? I'm just going to be happy and supportive of whatever decisions my friends make. If my friends need to file paperwork and then want to say vows in front of me, I will be happy for them and honored to be invited. Maybe one day you can try to be happy for others as well. Its quite liberating to get all that anger out and focus on the positive. 

    Not to sound mean but, technically, the visit to the JOP IS a ceremony. It's just not what we consider to be a traditional wedding ceremony. It is a formal, witnessed event with a set process. If it's that important to say your vows and say them in front of family, then arrange to do that. You can hire a civil celebrant for not a lot of money and have a more formal, yet still civil ceremony. When you decide to have a JOP ceremony, for whatever reason, you make that adult decision to give up on the more traditional ceremony and everything that goes along with it. I chose to elope and had my own reasons to do so, but should I now decide I didn't like that I didn't tell my family about our plans and hold a whole other ceremony? I knowingly chose my plans and stand by them (and FWIW, I do not regret it AT ALL.)

    edit- tried to add Merriam Webster's definition, but it got messy.

     







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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    Fine. It's poor etiquette.

    As someone has said, we all have decisions we have to make in life.

    I personally will have a random 90 window to get married if we ever want to live on the same continent. That is our choice. Unfortunately our families  (VIPs- MIL, FIL, siblings- really the only people we actually care about) do not have the means to take off from their jobs and make international travel arrangements on that short notice. (Heck, I can't even get off for a day on that short notice) Rather then have them feel badly about not being about to get off from work and spend $1000's on travel we are choosing to have a wedding at a later time when everyone can be there and we're no longer rushing and can actually enjoying spending the time with our families. Call us rude and selfish but that is the decision we are making. We know other couples who have done that same thing and everything went wonderfully. Call them rude and selfish as well.

    It made be poor etiquette but seriously- rude? selfish? childish? I have to be constantly reminded to think about what I want!
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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    Wow I just reread that and it sounds like I'm trying to justify myself... Sorry about that

    My point was people have reasons for their decisions. Try having an open mind
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    Jen4948Jen4948 member
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    edited May 2014
    karimichele13 said:
    Wow I just reread that and it sounds like I'm trying to justify myself... Sorry about that

    My point was people have reasons for their decisions. Try having an open mind
    Not when it comes to practicing good etiquette.  We are not here to endorse decisions that breach etiquette, because it's very, very rare that anyone has a good reason-they just think they're exempt from the rules of etiquette when they are not.
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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    Yeah we've been apart 5 months and are looking at another 4 more. He is coming into this country as soon as humanly possibly! I would marry him at the airport at this point.
    Schatzi13 said:
    karimichele13 said:
    Fine. It's poor etiquette.

    As someone has said, we all have decisions we have to make in life.

    I personally will have a random 90 window to get married if we ever want to live on the same continent. That is our choice. Unfortunately our families  (VIPs- MIL, FIL, siblings- really the only people we actually care about) do not have the means to take off from their jobs and make international travel arrangements on that short notice. (Heck, I can't even get off for a day on that short notice) Rather then have them feel badly about not being about to get off from work and spend $1000's on travel we are choosing to have a wedding at a later time when everyone can be there and we're no longer rushing and can actually enjoying spending the time with our families. Call us rude and selfish but that is the decision we are making. We know other couples who have done that same thing and everything went wonderfully. Call them rude and selfish as well.

    It made be poor etiquette but seriously- rude? selfish? childish? I have to be constantly reminded to think about what I want!
    Being apart sucks, but you could also look into using more of the K-1's six-month entry window. If your FI enters later, that will set the start of the 90-day countdown later, giving family members more time to ask vacation and to organize travel.

    Friends of mine did this, and they had a huge, traditional church wedding . It was about two months after the FI entered the US and maybe four or five after the K-1 was approved/they could set a date. (I believe they also planned what they could while the visa was processing.)
    Yeah we've been apart 5 months and are looking at another 4 more. He is coming into this country as soon as humanly possibly! I would marry him at the airport at this point. Again, I realize this is our choice to not spend another 2 months apart. Judge away.

    My question is how on earth do you plan (esp time off and travel arrangements) when you don't know if or when the visa is going to come through?
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    KGold80KGold80 member
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    If you want a meaningful ceremony, you don't have to go to a JOP to file paperwork with no vows spoken. You can shell out a couple hundred bucks for an officiant to conduct a ceremony with real vows if it is actually the exchange of vows that is important to you. If you need a religious ceremony, I am willing to bet that your own minister/priest/pastor would be willing to perform this ceremony for you. This ceremony can take place in your house, the backyard, a park, a friggin' shopping mall, probably even your church...literally anywhere. You can even buy a nice dress and then invite a handful of friends and family members to your ceremony and then back to your house for a BBQ, cake and punch, whatever. You don't have to have a do-over wedding with a big expensive dress, cake, etc. in order to have a meaningful marriage ceremony. Make an effort to make your wedding meaningful within your current means.
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    kkitkat79kkitkat79 member
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    edited May 2014
    What I don't understand is how you trick yourself into believing that you're not married after you do the "paper work"? 

    True story, my husband and I are from different countries so we have this whole immigration thing to deal with. When we first started planning the wedding he was all like "let's sign the papers first and then do the wedding" because he didn't want me to plan all of it by myself (we were getting married where I live). And I just couldn't get it. I told him "But the day we sign the papers is a special day. We would be in front of the officiant saying that we agree to marry each other. This is when it all happens!" There is just no way around that because that is when we became husband and wife. And I had a lot of doubt because I knew that his parents wouldn't be able to come if we did it my way and he is the only son. So at fist I was "Ok, maybe we can have two special days". So we decided to have a wedding where I live and then later to have some sort of celebration (possibly with a religious ceremony) at his home country. But of course as time passed by after our wedding the idea of a second ceremony was becoming more and more ridiculous. So we said "ok, let's just have a party". And we're not even doing that anymore because neither one of us wants to plan it! 

    And we are still not together. We decided to get married first and then he applied for immigration as a spouse. Doing it this way takes all the guesswork out of the timing of the wedding. If you get married before you even apply for immigration then you can do it anytime you want, you don't need to worry whether any immigration papers will be processed in time or approved in time. I don't know why more people don't do it this way. Maybe it takes longer, but it just makes so much more sense to me.
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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    That's great for you that you and your husband came to that decision and are happy with your choices.

    This is our choice. And it is okay. (Maybe my friends and family are just cool with rude and selfish people but whatever)

    We're following the law, doing everything to be together as soon as possible, and will say our vows in front of our friends and families when we can FINALLY get everyone all together. Those are our priorities. Being together as soon as possible is WAY more important to us than what Miss Manners might think if she found out we were already married.

    I honestly don't care what anyone thinks. I just want other ladies out there in the same situation to know that it is in fact possible to have your cake and eat it too (It's a wedding after all!)
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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    I still have not gotten a good answer to my question.

    Who is offended by this "getting married before the wedding" situation? Is it the family? The institution of marriage as a whole? Or just random other people? I'm still confused.

    (I refuse to use the term PPD anymore because it suggests that the day is about the dress and being the center of attention etc which is completely false)
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    chibiyuichibiyui member
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    karimichele13 said:

    That's great for you that you and your husband came to that decision and are happy with your choices.

    This is our choice. And it is okay. (Maybe my friends and family are just cool with rude and selfish people but whatever)

    We're following the law, doing everything to be together as soon as possible, and will say our vows in front of our friends and families when we can FINALLY get everyone all together. Those are our priorities. Being together as soon as possible is WAY more important to us than what Miss Manners might think if she found out we were already married.

    I honestly don't care what anyone thinks. I just want other ladies out there in the same situation to know that it is in fact possible to have your cake and eat it too (It's a wedding after all!)

    I had sympathy for you till the last paragraph. Either being with your FI as soon as possible is the most important thing, or having all your family members there is. It can't be both. You were given TONS of advice on how you could make it work, and instead you decide to go all Eric Cartman

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    DaisyMaeMommyDaisyMaeMommy member
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    karimichele13 said:
    I still have not gotten a good answer to my question.

    Who is offended by this "getting married before the wedding" situation? Is it the family? The institution of marriage as a whole? Or just random other people? I'm still confused.

    (I refuse to use the term PPD anymore because it suggests that the day is about the dress and being the center of attention etc which is completely false)
    The family, other guests invited to their re-do ceremony, etc etc.

    It doesn't matter if you're lying about being married already or not. Once you sign your marriage license, you are LEGALLY married. THAT is considered your wedding. It does not matter if you said vows, had a first dance, cut the cake, or not. When you sign that LEGALLY-binding paper, you are husband and wife. Done and done.
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    LDay2014LDay2014 member
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    karimichele13 said:
    I still have not gotten a good answer to my question.

    Who is offended by this "getting married before the wedding" situation? Is it the family? The institution of marriage as a whole? Or just random other people? I'm still confused.

    (I refuse to use the term PPD anymore because it suggests that the day is about the dress and being the center of attention etc which is completely false)
    The people whom you claim are your nearest and dearest.  The ones you are LYING to...
    Hey, if you have no integrity then that's on you but I want to know what I'm in fact being invited to witness.

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    JCbride2015JCbride2015 member
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    karimichele13 said:
    I still have not gotten a good answer to my question.

    Who is offended by this "getting married before the wedding" situation? Is it the family? The institution of marriage as a whole? Or just random other people? I'm still confused.

    (I refuse to use the term PPD anymore because it suggests that the day is about the dress and being the center of attention etc which is completely false)
    Now I'm frustrated because I feel like you are just deliberately pretending nobody has answered your questions.  This thread answers ALL of those questions.  Plus, you were acting all distanced and like you were just curious, and now come to find out you are planning a PPD.  Notice the only people sticking up for PPDs and lying to guests are the ones who are having PPDs?

    Who is offended?  All of the above you mentioned.  1)  I promise, someone you know is offended and just too polite to say anything to your face.  They will be giving you major side-eye when you play-act your vows in a performance in front of your guests.  Or if nobody knows yet, somebody will be very offended when they find out they were LIED TO.  2)  PPDs denigrate the institution of marriage because you are pretending the "paperwork" (your MARRIAGE) is meaningless until you get the big party to celebrate it.  Thus making it about the party, not the commitment.  3)  Plus it denigrates gay couples everywhere who are fighting so hard for the rights that come with that "paperwork."  Gay couples can have a big ole party, sure.  But it many states they are still discriminated against and can't get the very important rights that come with marriage.  It's a slap in the face to take advantage of the government rights (like immigration) that come with marriage, but then pretend you aren't "really" married until you get your party.

    And in your situation, you have months to work this out and have been given very good ideas on this board for how to make things work.  At the very least, just be honest that you are already married and then have the big party later.  But accept that it's a big-ass, super fun, PARTY, not a wedding.  Call it a celebration of marriage, eat a bunch of cake and dance all night with your friends and family.  Have a blast.  But it's not a wedding if you already got married for immigration benefits.
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    kkitkat79kkitkat79 member
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    karimichele13 said:
    That's great for you that you and your husband came to that decision and are happy with your choices.

    This is our choice. And it is okay. (Maybe my friends and family are just cool with rude and selfish people but whatever)

    We're following the law, doing everything to be together as soon as possible, and will say our vows in front of our friends and families when we can FINALLY get everyone all together. Those are our priorities. Being together as soon as possible is WAY more important to us than what Miss Manners might think if she found out we were already married.

    I honestly don't care what anyone thinks. I just want other ladies out there in the same situation to know that it is in fact possible to have your cake and eat it too (It's a wedding after all!)
    But that is my question. How do you separate the two events, how in your mind do you make it ok for you? How do you legally become husband and wife and then months later promise each other to be faithful and what not? So during all these months after the "paper signing" you don't have to uphold those vows that you will say at your ceremony? 

    If being together is your priority then you should do whatever you have to to be together. But you don't have to get married and then "get married" again. That is not part of the immigration process (as far as I know). And as far as your family goes, they will not get to see the real thing.

    My sister had to get married outside the country where she lives because she could not do it legally there. It was just her and her spouse. She had at home ceremony after with family and friends. And her biggest regret to this day (after years of marriage and a kid) is that she didn't fly us out to see her actual wedding. The second ceremony was lovely and the party was great, but it wasn't the real thing. That day means nothing to her now. They celebrate their anniversary on the day they actually got married. And I didn't get to see my only sister (and we are identical twins) get married. Luckily, I learned from her mistake :)

    I am not judging you. I am just trying to understand how you disconnect the legal part from the vow part. The vows, if not said, are certainly implied during the "paper signing". And I honestly worry that separating the two just cheapens the whole thing because the couple sees "paper signing" as not special enough, but the vows said after they are already married are somehow not as meaningful either. And so everyone loses. Maybe it's just me...
            
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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    kkitkat79 said:
    karimichele13 said:
    That's great for you that you and your husband came to that decision and are happy with your choices.

    This is our choice. And it is okay. (Maybe my friends and family are just cool with rude and selfish people but whatever)

    We're following the law, doing everything to be together as soon as possible, and will say our vows in front of our friends and families when we can FINALLY get everyone all together. Those are our priorities. Being together as soon as possible is WAY more important to us than what Miss Manners might think if she found out we were already married.

    I honestly don't care what anyone thinks. I just want other ladies out there in the same situation to know that it is in fact possible to have your cake and eat it too (It's a wedding after all!)
    But that is my question. How do you separate the two events, how in your mind do you make it ok for you? How do you legally become husband and wife and then months later promise each other to be faithful and what not? So during all these months after the "paper signing" you don't have to uphold those vows that you will say at your ceremony? 

    If being together is your priority then you should do whatever you have to to be together. But you don't have to get married and then "get married" again. That is not part of the immigration process (as far as I know). And as far as your family goes, they will not get to see the real thing.

    My sister had to get married outside the country where she lives because she could not do it legally there. It was just her and her spouse. She had at home ceremony after with family and friends. And her biggest regret to this day (after years of marriage and a kid) is that she didn't fly us out to see her actual wedding. The second ceremony was lovely and the party was great, but it wasn't the real thing. That day means nothing to her now. They celebrate their anniversary on the day they actually got married. And I didn't get to see my only sister (and we are identical twins) get married. Luckily, I learned from her mistake :)

    I am not judging you. I am just trying to understand how you disconnect the legal part from the vow part. The vows, if not said, are certainly implied during the "paper signing". And I honestly worry that separating the two just cheapens the whole thing because the couple sees "paper signing" as not special enough, but the vows said after they are already married are somehow not as meaningful either. And so everyone loses. Maybe it's just me...
            
    I think they're equally meaningful. The first time is making a vow to each other, the second time is sharing those vows with our families. I think part of the problem is the assumption the we don't think of the first time as real which isn't true.  Of course we will be married that's the whole point. We just want to be able to share it with everyone.
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    lyndausvilyndausvi mod
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    I feel like entering into a LEGAL marriage is a very adult choice.   That "piece" of paper gives you more than just a religious marriage can give you.  

    I'm not saying a religious ceremony can't be as important, it's just if it was more important there would not be a need for the LEGAL one.  If it wasn't important one would just do the ceremony in front of family and friends if you are not religious.

    There are ton of reasons for a need to get LEGALLY married first.  I get those reasons and respect those choices.   For life of me I do not understand the reason to lie about them.  And that is my biggest issue with re-do weddings.  It's the lying.

    Almost every person who has said they didn't tell family and friends first was so the GUESTS would feel like they are witnessing them getting married for the first time.  Or they say they want their "real" wedding.

    Most weddings are a matter of public record.  I see no reason lying to guests over something they can look up easily.  It's silly and immature.  Just own it.  Heck, even Kim K as caught by her family in her first marriage after they did a non-related Google search of her name.   Why do that to people you apparently love?

    The people I know who have had the re-do weddings have always told us about the legal wedding first.  They owned up to choosing to get married first.  Then they have a party/re-do later.   I even flew overseas for religious ceremony that was 5 months after legal marriage.  The legal marriage was sooner because of immigration issues.   I completely understood and supported them.

    No matter how small or large people do not like being deceived.   Not telling your guests you are already  married only benefits the couple.  It deceptive to the guests.

    Bottom line is if you are in the up and up.  Go for it, I do not care.  Just like any other event I will attend or not attend because of schedules and finances.   The fact I know you are already married will have little to no impact on my attendance.

    If I find out you lied about being married, well then I'm going to be one pissed off, hurt person.










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    karimichelekarimichele member
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    JCBride2014 said:
    karimichele13 said:
    I still have not gotten a good answer to my question.

    Who is offended by this "getting married before the wedding" situation? Is it the family? The institution of marriage as a whole? Or just random other people? I'm still confused.

    (I refuse to use the term PPD anymore because it suggests that the day is about the dress and being the center of attention etc which is completely false)
    Now I'm frustrated because I feel like you are just deliberately pretending nobody has answered your questions.  This thread answers ALL of those questions.  Plus, you were acting all distanced and like you were just curious, and now come to find out you are planning a PPD.  Notice the only people sticking up for PPDs and lying to guests are the ones who are having PPDs?

    Who is offended?  All of the above you mentioned.  1)  I promise, someone you know is offended and just too polite to say anything to your face.  They will be giving you major side-eye when you play-act your vows in a performance in front of your guests.  Or if nobody knows yet, somebody will be very offended when they find out they were LIED TO.  2)  PPDs denigrate the institution of marriage because you are pretending the "paperwork" (your MARRIAGE) is meaningless until you get the big party to celebrate it.  Thus making it about the party, not the commitment.  3)  Plus it denigrates gay couples everywhere who are fighting so hard for the rights that come with that "paperwork."  Gay couples can have a big ole party, sure.  But it many states they are still discriminated against and can't get the very important rights that come with marriage.  It's a slap in the face to take advantage of the government rights (like immigration) that come with marriage, but then pretend you aren't "really" married until you get your party.

    And in your situation, you have months to work this out and have been given very good ideas on this board for how to make things work.  At the very least, just be honest that you are already married and then have the big party later.  But accept that it's a big-ass, super fun, PARTY, not a wedding.  Call it a celebration of marriage, eat a bunch of cake and dance all night with your friends and family.  Have a blast.  But it's not a wedding if you already got married for immigration benefits.
    Ironically a women just walked by my office who actually had a same sex PPD. She did not realize this was offensive to other same-sex couples. We had actually spoken about the 2 weddings before and she reiterated that are vows were incredibly meaningful both times. Although I guess it wasn't really a secret since she was already using her married name at work by the time the second one came around
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    crunchymamaof2 crunchymamaof2 member
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    Jells2dot0 said:

    I still do not understand why a big, fun, amazing party celebrating a marriage, without the re-do, is not enough. Seriously, the only thing that would be missing is the 5-10 minutes it takes to say some vows since you've already exchanged rings and signed the paperwork. If you really feel that strongly about letting your families know how you feel about one another, grab the mic from the DJ or band and give a quick speech about how much your sig other means to you, how blessed you are to be married to them, and how much it means to you that everyone is present for the party!!!! There is no need to dress up in a gown, traipse down an aisle, and try to re-create a moment from a few months prior. Pick a venue for a reception, hire a photographer/musicians/florist, have a lovely dinner and drinks, dance, have cake, and just enjoy it!


    Can this be posted every time this comes up? Because there is no good or valid reason to reject this plan. To attempt to do so would prove that the pretty dress and attention was the real priority, not sharing your love.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

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    dwhereicomedwhereicome member
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    Some people will just
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    dwhereicomedwhereicome member
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    @karimichele13 I'm really sorry to hear you have had to be apart from you FI for so long. I'm also sorry that you are getting bullied because you both want to me with him and want to say your vows in front of your family. I am sure that none of your friends would rather you be apart for months longer than see you say 'real' vows. I'm sure they would rather you be with your FI and say vows in front of them when you are able to. At least that is how I feel. I would never, ever force a friend to be apart from their SO because 10 months, a year later, they would be saying 'fake' vows. Also the term PPD is demeaning. The bullying here is unacceptable. I am sorry some strangers are pressuring you to be apart from your FI. I would never want to be apart from mine. My family would never, ever hide behind the shield of etiquette to ask me to be apart from my FI for moths longer than necessary because of they might think that my vows were fake. Instead they would WANT me to be HAPPY and if that means being with my FI now by filing a legal (and meaningful) marriage now AND saying personal vows in front of that a later time they would absolutely support that.
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    JCbride2015JCbride2015 member
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    Molly12345 said:
    @karimichele13 I'm really sorry to hear you have had to be apart from you FI for so long. I'm also sorry that you are getting bullied because you both want to me with him and want to say your vows in front of your family. I am sure that none of your friends would rather you be apart for months longer than see you say 'real' vows. I'm sure they would rather you be with your FI and say vows in front of them when you are able to. At least that is how I feel. I would never, ever force a friend to be apart from their SO because 10 months, a year later, they would be saying 'fake' vows. Also the term PPD is demeaning. The bullying here is unacceptable. I am sorry some strangers are pressuring you to be apart from your FI. I would never want to be apart from mine. My family would never, ever hide behind the shield of etiquette to ask me to be apart from my FI for moths longer than necessary because of they might think that my vows were fake. Instead they would WANT me to be HAPPY and if that means being with my FI now by filing a legal (and meaningful) marriage now AND saying personal vows in front of that a later time they would absolutely support that.
    Nobody's bullying.  We are having an honest, constructive conversation about how she can work within her limits to have a meaningful wedding.  ONE meaningful wedding.

    And who said she and her Fi should be separated?????  We are just saying not to have a fake re-do later.  Nobody's saying he should not immigrate because of wedding issues.
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    JCbride2015JCbride2015 member
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    Oh--- and *bullying* plus *telepathy* makes BINGO!
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    mrs4everhartmrs4everhart member
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    kkitkat79 said:
    What I don't understand is how you trick yourself into believing that you're not married after you do the "paper work"? Why do you assume people have to trick themselves? It's just as easy for me to comprehend how you feel committing your name in ink on a government document will have a profound emotional impact on you and your fiancé as it is for me to comprehend it didn't have a similar effect on us. If the signing of a marriage license is an emotional ritual for you, then you've made the right decision to wait. But if it isn't a defining moment in someone's relationship, if it doesn't have a deep, emotional impact on them, but saying vows, or whatever ritual two people prescribe to does, then no trickery is needed. The only thing that a couple needs to "believe" they are married is whatever process, ritual, rite, religious ceremony, or pronouncement is important to them. 

    I guess that's why many states recognize common-law marriages. In Colorado for example, one of the benchmarks of common-law marriage is that the couple must "hold themselves out" as married. I assume in order to do so they must truly believe themselves to be so, wouldn't they? 

    True story, my husband and I are from different countries so we have this whole immigration thing to deal with. When we first started planning the wedding he was all like "let's sign the papers first and then do the wedding" because he didn't want me to plan all of it by myself (we were getting married where I live). And I just couldn't get it. I told him "But the day we sign the papers is a special day. We would be in front of the officiant saying that we agree to marry each other. This is when it all happens!" There is just no way around that because that is when we became husband and wife. And I had a lot of doubt because I knew that his parents wouldn't be able to come if we did it my way and he is the only son. So at fist I was "Ok, maybe we can have two special days". So we decided to have a wedding where I live and then later to have some sort of celebration (possibly with a religious ceremony) at his home country. But of course as time passed by after our wedding the idea of a second ceremony was becoming more and more ridiculous. So we said "ok, let's just have a party". And we're not even doing that anymore because neither one of us wants to plan it! 

    And we are still not together. We decided to get married first and then he applied for immigration as a spouse. Doing it this way takes all the guesswork out of the timing of the wedding. If you get married before you even apply for immigration then you can do it anytime you want, you don't need to worry whether any immigration papers will be processed in time or approved in time. I don't know why more people don't do it this way. Maybe it takes longer, but it just makes so much more sense to me.

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