Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

mimiphin · January 2014

mobkaz said:

I saw the name of the responder above ^^ and my first thought was...........

Let us all bow down and let this now rest in peace.

Sabinus15 · February 2014

Sabinus15 said:

It reminds me of that moral dilemma where you can choose to follow an injust law because it is the law or choose to break the law for the sake of the greater good. It just depends on the way you make moral choices and your moral development level as illustrated below:

Eye roll. Please post more things you don't understand. Those in "level three" understand that lying is ok in some situations (i.e., a corrupt government is asking if you are harboring an innocent person who they want to kill) and not ok when it just benefits yourself (i.e., you are lying about your marital status because you want government benefits and for people to attend your "wedding").

Actually, I do understand this chart. I realize that some people have good reasons for having a second ceremony (ex: needing a place to live) and others have bad reasons (impatience). I am not encouraging people to have two ceremonies unless they need to, which would probably be the case with any mature adult. I believe that level three is all about comparing possible choices based on their moral value, not necessarily who is affected by the choice. For example, if someone is themselves a jew in Nazi Germany, and they lie to save themselves and their spouse from harm, are they being selfish? Maybe, but saving someone's life is more important that being truthful. The Nazi would be disappointed that he could not find them, but would it make a huge impact on his life? No, but it would make a much larger difference on the jew's and their spouse's lives if the jew told the truth. In the same way, I believe it is a valid reason to have a two ceremonies for dire financial/legal/spiritual reasons because it is more important have a place to live than to make some guests uncomfortable.

Now if a couple decide they want to have a JOP wedding and then a "real" wedding later just because, well that's a different story. That actually is being selfish because they are more concerned about their own well being than their guests (so they are level 1). Level two people are more concerned about their guest's well being than their own, which is not bad in itself, but it CAN be detrimental to the life and marriage of the couple. Level three people act in a way that has the best possible outcome for all involved, which does include themselves. This does not make them selfish. It just means that they are not willing to go far out of their way and beyond their ability to meet everyone's expectations, because they realize that their wedding is, in fact, just a party.

Side note, I do apologize for poorly representing those who disagree with the majority of regular posters. I was snarky without need.

cookie0803 · February 2014

FYI, "Jew" is often considered a derogatory term. Also, I doubt any Jewish family that had to hide from a nazi would agree with your comparison. I was just going to let this thread die, but that was beyond offensive.

ETA: I deleted the quote, since for some reason it looked like NYCBruin said it, rather than Sabinus.

crunchymamaof2 · February 2014

@cookie0803 Sabinus said those obnoxious and offensive things correct? Because your quote makes it look like NYCBruin did and that can't be possible.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly about how offensive that was. Comparing A Jewish couple in Nazi Germany to people having a PPD is absolutely horrific and disgusting. If a person or couple is that bad off that they have to get married to avoid homelessness or similar a PPD should be the furthest thing from their minds. Now, maybe a Vow Renewal a few years down the line to celebrate making it through those hard times, but a re-do ceremony? Give it up. That couple should be kissing the government's ass that allowed them to get married and receive those benefits that "saved" them in the first place, not pissing and moaning about not getting a "princess day".

cookie0803 · February 2014

@acove2006 it was Sabinus, but for some reason when I quoted it did make it look like NYCBruin. Sorry NYC!

You're spot-on with your post, acove. Some people just have their priorities all out of order.

MobKaz · February 2014

My guess is that the poster from above made such a deliberate offensive post in an attempt to draw responses. Posters such as SAB and STB, who have no actual arguments, will do things like that in an attempt to keep their threads alive.

I cannot tell anyone not to respond, and I almost commented myself, but this insanity must end with these two.........

crunchymamaof2 · February 2014

mobkaz said:

My guess is that the poster from above made such a deliberate offensive post in an attempt to draw responses. Posters such as SAB and STB, who have no actual arguments, will do things like that in an attempt to keep their threads alive.

I cannot tell anyone not to respond, and I almost commented myself, but this insanity must end with these two.........

Sab and STB who???..... ;-)

Maggie0829 · February 2014

I honestly can't believe that someone just compared being of Jewish decent in Nazi Germany and lying to save their lives is the same as lying about your marriage status. Did I seriously just read that?!

lyndausvi · February 2014

Maggie0829 said:

I honestly can't believe that someone just compared being of Jewish decent in Nazi Germany and lying to save their lives is the same as lying about your marriage status. Did I seriously just read that?!

Sadly yes. I hope people know it wasn't NYC who said those things.

NYCBruin · February 2014

lyndausvi said:

Maggie0829 said:

I honestly can't believe that someone just compared being of Jewish decent in Nazi Germany and lying to save their lives is the same as lying about your marriage status. Did I seriously just read that?!

Sadly yes. I hope people know it wasn't NYC who said those things.

Definitely not me! The quote boxes got all wonky.

I cannot believe that someone thinks lying to a murdering government to save someone's life is the same as lying to your friends and family to get insurance/housing/whatever are remotely similar.

Sabinus15 · February 2014

acove2006 said:
@cookie0803 Sabinus said those obnoxious and offensive things correct? Because your quote makes it look like NYCBruin did and that can't be possible.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly about how offensive that was. Comparing A Jewish couple in Nazi Germany to people having a PPD is absolutely horrific and disgusting. If a person or couple is that bad off that they have to get married to avoid homelessness or similar a PPD should be the furthest thing from their minds. Now, maybe a Vow Renewal a few years down the line to celebrate making it through those hard times, but a re-do ceremony? Give it up. That couple should be kissing the government's ass that allowed them to get married and receive those benefits that "saved" them in the first place, not pissing and moaning about not getting a "princess day".

I was not the first person in this board to use that analogy, so don't jump on me for that. And I used an extreme example to better explain level 3 morality, not to compare the scenario to a ppd. And the term Jew is no more offensive than calling someone a Muslim, Christian, or Hindu.

Back to the actual discussion, I'm just saying that I think there are possible scenarios in which it is a wiser decision to have two ceremonies than one, and if you think that is not a possibility than you probably have level 2 morality.

NYCBruin · February 2014

Sabinus15 said:

@cookie0803 Sabinus said those obnoxious and offensive things correct? Because your quote makes it look like NYCBruin did and that can't be possible.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly about how offensive that was. Comparing A Jewish couple in Nazi Germany to people having a PPD is absolutely horrific and disgusting. If a person or couple is that bad off that they have to get married to avoid homelessness or similar a PPD should be the furthest thing from their minds. Now, maybe a Vow Renewal a few years down the line to celebrate making it through those hard times, but a re-do ceremony? Give it up. That couple should be kissing the government's ass that allowed them to get married and receive those benefits that "saved" them in the first place, not pissing and moaning about not getting a "princess day".
I was not the first person in this board to use that analogy, so don't jump on me for that. And I used an extreme example to better explain level 3 morality, not to compare the scenario to a ppd. And the term Jew is no more offensive than calling someone a Muslim, Christian, or Hindu. Back to the actual discussion, I'm just saying that I think there are possible scenarios in which it is a wiser decision to have two ceremonies than one, and if you think that is not a possibility than you probably have level 2 morality.

No. There are situations where it makes sense to get married sooner than you had planned. But that doesn't mean you need to have a second ceremony. Change the wedding you were planning to a kick-ass party without a fake ceremony. Problem solved without lying or playing dress up. This is not complicated.

I'm not even going to touch on the rest of your post because you don't seem to understand the chart you posted well enough to have a debate about it, and the word "Jew" can be offensive. Maybe use this as a learning experience and eliminate it from your vocabulary.

Sabinus15 · February 2014

NYCBruin said:

Sabinus15 said:

@cookie0803 Sabinus said those obnoxious and offensive things correct? Because your quote makes it look like NYCBruin did and that can't be possible.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly about how offensive that was. Comparing A Jewish couple in Nazi Germany to people having a PPD is absolutely horrific and disgusting. If a person or couple is that bad off that they have to get married to avoid homelessness or similar a PPD should be the furthest thing from their minds. Now, maybe a Vow Renewal a few years down the line to celebrate making it through those hard times, but a re-do ceremony? Give it up. That couple should be kissing the government's ass that allowed them to get married and receive those benefits that "saved" them in the first place, not pissing and moaning about not getting a "princess day".
I was not the first person in this board to use that analogy, so don't jump on me for that. And I used an extreme example to better explain level 3 morality, not to compare the scenario to a ppd. And the term Jew is no more offensive than calling someone a Muslim, Christian, or Hindu.

Back to the actual discussion, I'm just saying that I think there are possible scenarios in which it is a wiser decision to have two ceremonies than one, and if you think that is not a possibility than you probably have level 2 morality.

No. There are situations where it makes sense to get married sooner than you had planned. But that doesn't mean you need to have a second ceremony. Change the wedding you were planning to a kick-ass party without a fake ceremony. Problem solved without lying or playing dress up. This is not complicated.

I'm not even going to touch on the rest of your post because you don't seem to understand the chart you posted well enough to have a debate about it, and the word "Jew" can be offensive. Maybe use this as a learning experience and eliminate it from your vocabulary.

I understand the word Jew can be offensive if you use it in an offensive way (imply that Jews have less value than other people) but i am very sure I am not using the word in an offensive way because I was using the word to identify someone's reason for being persecuted and if you are offended by a descriptive, non degrading noun, than you are the one who associates it with a negative point if view towards Jews, not me. And while we're being honest, I am offended by your insinuation.

What else should I eliminate from my vocabulary, hm? Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan?

JCbride2015 · February 2014

Sabinus15 said:

Sabinus15 said:

@cookie0803 Sabinus said those obnoxious and offensive things correct? Because your quote makes it look like NYCBruin did and that can't be possible.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly about how offensive that was. Comparing A Jewish couple in Nazi Germany to people having a PPD is absolutely horrific and disgusting. If a person or couple is that bad off that they have to get married to avoid homelessness or similar a PPD should be the furthest thing from their minds. Now, maybe a Vow Renewal a few years down the line to celebrate making it through those hard times, but a re-do ceremony? Give it up. That couple should be kissing the government's ass that allowed them to get married and receive those benefits that "saved" them in the first place, not pissing and moaning about not getting a "princess day".
I was not the first person in this board to use that analogy, so don't jump on me for that. And I used an extreme example to better explain level 3 morality, not to compare the scenario to a ppd. And the term Jew is no more offensive than calling someone a Muslim, Christian, or Hindu. Back to the actual discussion, I'm just saying that I think there are possible scenarios in which it is a wiser decision to have two ceremonies than one, and if you think that is not a possibility than you probably have level 2 morality.

No. There are situations where it makes sense to get married sooner than you had planned. But that doesn't mean you need to have a second ceremony. Change the wedding you were planning to a kick-ass party without a fake ceremony. Problem solved without lying or playing dress up. This is not complicated.

I'm not even going to touch on the rest of your post because you don't seem to understand the chart you posted well enough to have a debate about it, and the word "Jew" can be offensive. Maybe use this as a learning experience and eliminate it from your vocabulary.
I understand the word Jew can be offensive if you use it in an offensive way (imply that Jews have less value than other people) but i am very sure I am not using the word in an offensive way because I was using the word to identify someone's reason for being persecuted and if you are offended by a descriptive, non degrading noun, than you are the one who associates it with a negative point if view towards Jews, not me. And while we're being honest, I am offended by your insinuation. What else should I eliminate from my vocabulary, hm? Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan?

For once I agree with Sabinus on this point: her comparison was offensive, but her actual use of the word Jew was not. Jew, just like "Christian" or "black" or "white," can be offensive when used in a crass and offensive way. Which I will not demonstrate here. But the sentence, "If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany and you lied to save a family hiding in your attic...." is not an offensive use of the word. At least not the way I see it.

ETA: but this is really a huge detour from the original debate. Agree with PPs that there are all kinds of reasons to get married earlier than planned. But lying to have a second party is not a sign of higher morality, it's a sign you are a self-centered AW who doesn't care about lying to loved ones.

Sabinus15 · February 2014

JCBride2014 said:

Sabinus15 said:

Sabinus15 said:

@cookie0803 Sabinus said those obnoxious and offensive things correct? Because your quote makes it look like NYCBruin did and that can't be possible.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly about how offensive that was. Comparing A Jewish couple in Nazi Germany to people having a PPD is absolutely horrific and disgusting. If a person or couple is that bad off that they have to get married to avoid homelessness or similar a PPD should be the furthest thing from their minds. Now, maybe a Vow Renewal a few years down the line to celebrate making it through those hard times, but a re-do ceremony? Give it up. That couple should be kissing the government's ass that allowed them to get married and receive those benefits that "saved" them in the first place, not pissing and moaning about not getting a "princess day".
I was not the first person in this board to use that analogy, so don't jump on me for that. And I used an extreme example to better explain level 3 morality, not to compare the scenario to a ppd. And the term Jew is no more offensive than calling someone a Muslim, Christian, or Hindu. Back to the actual discussion, I'm just saying that I think there are possible scenarios in which it is a wiser decision to have two ceremonies than one, and if you think that is not a possibility than you probably have level 2 morality.

No. There are situations where it makes sense to get married sooner than you had planned. But that doesn't mean you need to have a second ceremony. Change the wedding you were planning to a kick-ass party without a fake ceremony. Problem solved without lying or playing dress up. This is not complicated.

I'm not even going to touch on the rest of your post because you don't seem to understand the chart you posted well enough to have a debate about it, and the word "Jew" can be offensive. Maybe use this as a learning experience and eliminate it from your vocabulary.
I understand the word Jew can be offensive if you use it in an offensive way (imply that Jews have less value than other people) but i am very sure I am not using the word in an offensive way because I was using the word to identify someone's reason for being persecuted and if you are offended by a descriptive, non degrading noun, than you are the one who associates it with a negative point if view towards Jews, not me. And while we're being honest, I am offended by your insinuation. What else should I eliminate from my vocabulary, hm? Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Wiccan?

For once I agree with Sabinus on this point: her comparison was offensive, but her actual use of the word Jew was not. Jew, just like "Christian" or "black" or "white," can be offensive when used in a crass and offensive way. Which I will not demonstrate here. But the sentence, "If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany and you lied to save a family hiding in your attic...." is not an offensive use of the word. At least not the way I see it.

ETA: but this is really a huge detour from the original debate. Agree with PPs that there are all kinds of reasons to get married earlier than planned. But lying to have a second party is not a sign of higher morality, it's a sign you are a self-centered AW who doesn't care about lying to loved ones.

I appreciate the support, thank you.

I am not suggesting that you should lie about your marriage, I would probably agree that lying is not the wisest decision. It makes sense that if your friends and family will not support your decision to have a second ceremony, then they should not be there.

But judging people for having a second ceremony when they are upfront about it (as many people have mentioned they were) just doesn't make sense to me. It's their wedding, and if they want to observe it by having two ceremonies, then let them do it. It's common enough now that most people don't give it a second thought (aka they are not offended).

On a third note, I personally wouldn't mind if I attended a PPD, because I would take it as the couple obviously cared about me enough to want me to be there and to pay for my plate, seat, invitation, etc. That's just my own opinion.

But I've said all this before, and you'll all say the same responses. So I'm just going to keep supporting the couples in my life for making choices that may be deemed inappropriate by the people on this small corner of the internet. In the end, it's one day in both of our lives, and life is too short to be offended by little things like whether a wedding is "real" or not, or if the couple is "making" me pay for my alcohol, or if I had to bring my own food to the wedding.

beam20062010 · February 2014

Normally, I would just read a thread and move on. However, this time I feel the need to speak up and voice my opinion. After reading this I can understand why there are not a lot of other people wanting to jump in with opposing views for fear of being labeled a “troll” or dealing with negative comments.

Although, after 20 pages, I think it’s safe to say this topic is not as cut and dry as you want people to believe. No, I do not plan on getting married before our wedding date. But, this thread was a little hard to miss and it did get me thinking a lot, so I wanted to share some of things I still don’t quite understand.

For instance, the comment about how as adults we must make difficult decisions in life and we must also learn to live with these decisions. Why does this only apply to weddings? Why is there no concern that the divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. alone? I don’t get how people can look down their noses and show such disgust over how many wedding events a couple has or what they choose to call them; but yet divorce is such commonplace in our society.

I don’t get why it’s so important that a couple must live with their decision on how they get married, but do not have to live with their decision to get married. Something is very wrong with this picture. I understand there are instances (ex. abusive relationships, cheating spouse etc.) that a couple could not have foreseen prior to making this legal commitment. This is why we have divorce. Even though no one held a gun to their heads and made them get married, we realize there are exceptions to every rule. Well, that is of course, unless your an engaged couple that might encounter unforeseen circumstances prior to getting married, then, you must live with your decisions.

I am guessing anyone that has had a divorce can give you a whole list of reasons/excuses why their marriage did not stand the test of time. So, if we also later find out the couple is now divorced, wasn’t it technically just a big fat lie in front of wedding guests when they promised “till death do us part”? Doesn’t this lie make it “fake”? How do you know for sure they really even truly meant those words the day of their wedding? Isn’t it rude to the guests that wasted their time and money in attending this wedding? If you think this sounds absolutely ridiculous, I agree. Now you know how I felt reading this thread.

Next, yes, lying is wrong. My three year old could answer this question, so I won’t debate this fact. However, what I will do is debate whether or not withholding information is considered lying. When you were little did the Easter bunny leave you a basket? Did Santa visit your house on Christmas Eve? Did you put a tooth under your pillow for the tooth fairy? Were your parents a bunch of no good lairs? Is taking your kid to see someone dressed up as a fake Santa pretending to be something they are not, wrong? Is it ok for adults to lie to kids if the end result is enjoyment, but not ok for adults to lie to adults if the end result is enjoyment? They are just kids, so it doesn’t count if you lie to a kid, you just can’t lie to another adult. Right? Kids, are less important, right?

Let me get this straight, you would have a problem with attending a wedding where a married women you care about is dressed up like a bride; but you will spend time and money to take your kid to see some random guy you don’t know that’s dressed up like Santa or the Easter bunny. Wait, I thought it was never ever ok to lie under any circumstances, period. Especially, lying to your family who you love.

That’s right, this is just stupid make believe kid stuff, it’s not something important like a legal marriage between two adults, this shit is real. But, I am guessing if you ask any young kid chances are those things are very real to them because that’s what you made them believe. If that’s the case, you are saying it’s really NOT wrong to lie or withhold information from our loved ones, it just depends on the particular situation. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

Honestly, I don’t think anyone, including myself, can sit here and say what we would or wouldn’t do if in this situation. To me, that’s a lot like listening to a women tell me exactly how labor is going to feel that has never had a baby. Now, that’s something I would side eye the shit out of.

It’s a nice thought to think we would all so easily give up the wedding dress, bridesmaids, and everything else deemed inappropriate by some unwritten law of etiquette; but the truth is all we can really do is make assumptions. I am sure a lot of couples ending up in a divorce thought their marriages were going to go a certain way, but in reality we really don’t know until we walk down that path. I know, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the point I’m currently making, your going to say, “well they made the decision to get married early for benefits, if those things were important to them they should have waited like I did.” Hold on, I’m getting to that part.

Let’s talk about what’s most important. I read a lot of comments about the current struggles of the gay and lesbian community for the legal rights of marriage. How it’s a slap in the face to these individuals fighting so hard when other couples have PPD’s just because their first wedding ceremony was not good enough. I agree, a marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper; it’s a piece of paper representing the legal benefits not everyone is allowed just because of who they choose to love. The only thing that really makes a couple married is the license and ALL the other stuff is just extra unnecessary fluff.

Ok, if I understand this right, it’s a slap in the face to gays and lesbians because a couple decides the marriage license isn’t enough and they want all the extra unimportant fluff that isn’t required. But, it’s NOT a slap in the face to these communities when they watch people that can so easily have these benefits anytime they choose, decide to go years and years without them just so they can do it the “right” way with all the unimportant extras.

There are couples that would give their right tit to have these benefits right now today, but for couples, like myself, we aren’t happy with just those benefits and we want all the other material aspects not necessary to gain these benefits. Here, these gay and lesbian couples are fighting, struggling so hard just to get these benefits and we think it’s some noble feat because we choose to struggle so hard to go without these benefits just so we can have a wedding with all the extra unneeded fluff.

Why isn’t the marriage license enough for any of us? If being committed and married to our best friend for the rest of our lives is the most important thing, then why the hell do we wait years to do it? If you really think about it, labels aside, we all are just having Pretty Princess Days because NONE of it is really necessary. It’s like, you know honey, I really love and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but until we can afford all the extras, I am just not ready to make this commitment legally.

Finally, if this had been any other post, I would read it, roll my eyes, quietly disagree and then, go on with my life. Although, when a group of women decide to make this a “sticky”, it sends the message that these opinions on what’s considered “proper etiquette” or “right” about a situation they have never personally experienced, aside from just being a guest, is not an opinion, but an undisputed fact. When the fact is that everyday as a society we change, grow with the times and in the process discover things we once thought were proper or the right way is not necessarily true anymore.

Times are changing as we now have states recognizing that not allowing everyone the right to get married is not proper and is not the right way. Today, times are harder than ever for a lot of people whom are struggling with finances or obtaining affordable healthcare. So, to tell these people that just because times are difficult now they can not later have the wedding ceremony they have always dreamed of just doesn’t seem like the proper or right way to handle the situation. There is a reason why the “wedding police” does not exist.

I am sure there are those that only have a second wedding ceremony just because they want to gain money or gifts, but it’s not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s like giving everyone a speeding ticket just because one person decided not to obey the traffic laws. This is America, the land of the FREE, where you can make your dreams come true at anytime in your life regardless of the difficult past you may have been dealt. I won't judge people for the choices they make or which family members they choose to lie to, that's God's job, not mine.

Because I know this comment is coming, I do realize this is long, so you don't have to state the obvious. What can I say, you ladies gave me a lot of good points to dispute. Still, I don't think it's any longer than OP and I figured why not get it all out on one page instead of 20 more.

Edited: for grammer

LDay2014 · February 2014

I got lost somewhere after the first paragraph...

WinstonsGirl · February 2014

LDay2014 said:

I got lost somewhere after the first paragraph...

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist. Sorry

beam20062010 · February 2014

LDay2014 said:

I got lost somewhere after the first paragraph...

Did I call it or what! So predictable. If you don't want to read it or debate it respectfully, move on. No one is making you read or comment.

SKPM · February 2014

beam20062010 said:

Normally, I would just read a thread and move on. However, this time I feel the need to speak up and voice my opinion. After reading this I can understand why there are not a lot of other people wanting to jump in with opposing views for fear of being labeled a “troll” or dealing with negative comments.

Although, after 20 pages, I think it’s safe to say this topic is not as cut and dry as you want people to believe. No, I do not plan on getting married before our wedding date. But, this thread was a little hard to miss and it did get me thinking a lot, so I wanted to share some of things I still don’t quite understand.

For instance, the comment about how as adults we must make difficult decisions in life and we must also learn to live with these decisions. Why does this only apply to weddings? Why is there no concern that the divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. alone? I don’t get how people can look down their noses and show such disgust over how many wedding events a couple has or what they choose to call them; but yet divorce is such commonplace in our society.

I don’t get why it’s so important that a couple must live with their decision on how they get married, but do not have to live with their decision to get married. Something is very wrong with this picture. I understand there are instances (ex. abusive relationships, cheating spouse etc.) that a couple could not have foreseen prior to making this legal commitment. This is why we have divorce. Even though no one held a gun to their heads and made them get married, we realize there are exceptions to every rule. Well, that is of course, unless your an engaged couple whom might encounter unforeseen circumstances prior to getting married, then, you must live with your decisions.

I am guessing anyone whom has had a divorce can give you a whole list of reasons/excuses why their marriage did not stand the test of time. So, if we also later find out the couple is now divorced, wasn’t it technically just a big fat lie in front of wedding guests when they promised “till death do us part”? Doesn’t this lie make it “fake”? How do you know for sure they really even truly meant those words the day of their wedding? Isn’t it rude to the guests whom wasted their time and money in attending this wedding? If you think this sounds absolutely ridiculous, I agree. Now you know how I felt reading this thread.

Next, yes, lying is wrong. My three year old could answer this question, so I won’t debate this fact. However, what I will do is debate whether or not withholding information is considered lying. When you were little did the Easter bunny leave you a basket? Did Santa visit your house on Christmas Eve? Did you put a tooth under your pillow for the tooth fairy? Were your parents a bunch of no good lairs? Is taking your kid to see someone dressed up as a fake Santa pretending to be something they are not, wrong? Is it ok for adults to lie to kids if the end result is enjoyment, but not ok for adults to lie to adults if the end result is enjoyment? They are just kids, so it doesn’t count if you lie to a kid, you just can’t lie to another adult. Right? Kids, are less important, right?

Let me get this straight, you would have a problem with attending a wedding where a married women you care about is dressed up like a bride; but you will spend time and money to take your kid to see some random guy you don’t know that’s dressed up like Santa or the Easter bunny. Wait, I thought it was never ever ok to lie under any circumstances, period. Especially, lying to your family whom you love.

That’s right, this is just stupid make believe kid stuff, it’s not something important like a legal marriage between two adults, this shit is real. But, I am guessing if you ask any young kid chances are those things are very real to them because that’s what you made them believe. If that’s the case, you are saying it’s really NOT wrong to lie or withhold information from our loved ones, it just depends on the particular situation. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

Honestly, I don’t think anyone, including myself, can sit here and say what we would or wouldn’t do if in this situation. To me, that’s a lot like listening to a women tell me exactly how labor is going to feel that has never had a baby. Now, that’s something I would side eye the shit out of.

It’s a nice thought to think we would all so easily give up the wedding dress, bridesmaids, and everything else deemed inappropriate by some unwritten law of etiquette; but the truth is all we can really do is make assumptions. I am sure a lot of couples ending up in a divorce thought their marriages were going to go a certain way, but in reality we really don’t know until we walk down that path. I know, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the point I’m currently making, your going to say, “well they made the decision to get married early for benefits, if those things were important to them they should have waited like I did.” Hold on, I’m getting to that part.

Let’s talk about what’s most important. I read a lot of comments about the current struggles of the gay and lesbian community for the legal rights of marriage. How it’s a slap in the face to these individuals fighting so hard when other couples have PPD’s just because their first wedding ceremony was not good enough. I agree, a marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper; it’s a piece of paper representing the legal benefits not everyone is allowed just because of whom they choose to love. The only thing that really makes a couple married is the license and ALL the other stuff is just extra unnecessary fluff.

Ok, if I understand this right, it’s a slap in the face to gays and lesbians because a couple decides the marriage license isn’t enough and they want all the extra unimportant fluff that isn’t required. But, it’s NOT a slap in the face to these communities when they watch people whom can so easily have these benefits anytime they choose, decide to go years and years without them just so they can do it the “right” way with all the unimportant extras.

There are couples whom would give their right tit to have these benefits right now today, but for couples, like myself, we aren’t happy with just those benefits and we want all the other material aspects not necessary to gain these benefits. Here, these gay and lesbian couples are fighting, struggling so hard just to get these benefits and we think it’s some noble feat because we choose to struggle so hard to go without these benefits just so we can have a wedding with all the extra unneeded fluff.

Why isn’t the marriage license enough for any of us? If being committed and married to our best friend for the rest of our lives is the most important thing, then why the hell do we wait years to do it? If you really think about it, labels aside, we all are just having Pretty Princess Days because NONE of it is really necessary. It’s like, you know honey, I really love and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but until we can afford all the extras, I am just not ready to make this commitment legally.

Finally, if this had been any other post, I would read it, roll my eyes, quietly disagree and then, go on with my life. Although, when a group of women decide to make this a “sticky”, it sends the message that these opinions on what’s considered “proper etiquette” or “right” about a situation they have never personally experienced, aside from just being a guest, is not an opinion, but an undisputed fact. When the fact is that everyday as a society we change, grow with the times and in the process discover things we once thought were proper or the right way is not necessarily true anymore.

Times are changing as we now have states recognizing that not allowing everyone the right to get married is not proper and is not the right way. Today, times are harder than ever for a lot of people whom are struggling with finances or obtaining affordable healthcare. So, to tell these people that just because times are difficult now they can not later have the wedding ceremony they have always dreamed of just doesn’t seem like the proper or right way to handle the situation. There is a reason why the “wedding police” does not exist.

I am sure there are those whom only have a second wedding ceremony just because they want to gain money or gifts, but it’s not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s like giving everyone a speeding ticket just because one person decided not to obey the traffic laws. This is America, the land of the FREE, where you can make your dreams come true at anytime in your life regardless of the difficult past you may have been dealt. I won't judge people for the choices they make or which family members they choose to lie to, that's God's job, not mine.

Because I know this comment is coming, I do realize this is long, so you don't have to state the obvious. What can I say, you ladies gave me a lot of good points to dispute. Still, I don't think it's any longer than OP and I figured why not get it all out on one page instead of 20 more.

WHO. The word you're so frequently looking for is "who." I read the entire post but I couldn't get past the incessant misuse of the word "whom."

beam20062010 · February 2014

LDay2014 said:

I got lost somewhere after the first paragraph...

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist. Sorry

Stuck in box........

Your completely right, so don't be sorry! I think it's reasonable to assume I am well aware of this fact. However, does this fact of not existing make it ok to lie? That's the point I'm making. I'm not debating if they are real or not real.

Sabinus15 · February 2014

beam20062010 said:

Normally, I would just read a thread and move on. However, this time I feel the need to speak up and voice my opinion. After reading this I can understand why there are not a lot of other people wanting to jump in with opposing views for fear of being labeled a “troll” or dealing with negative comments.

Although, after 20 pages, I think it’s safe to say this topic is not as cut and dry as you want people to believe. No, I do not plan on getting married before our wedding date. But, this thread was a little hard to miss and it did get me thinking a lot, so I wanted to share some of things I still don’t quite understand.

For instance, the comment about how as adults we must make difficult decisions in life and we must also learn to live with these decisions. Why does this only apply to weddings? Why is there no concern that the divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. alone? I don’t get how people can look down their noses and show such disgust over how many wedding events a couple has or what they choose to call them; but yet divorce is such commonplace in our society.

I don’t get why it’s so important that a couple must live with their decision on how they get married, but do not have to live with their decision to get married. Something is very wrong with this picture. I understand there are instances (ex. abusive relationships, cheating spouse etc.) that a couple could not have foreseen prior to making this legal commitment. This is why we have divorce. Even though no one held a gun to their heads and made them get married, we realize there are exceptions to every rule. Well, that is of course, unless your an engaged couple whom might encounter unforeseen circumstances prior to getting married, then, you must live with your decisions.

I am guessing anyone whom has had a divorce can give you a whole list of reasons/excuses why their marriage did not stand the test of time. So, if we also later find out the couple is now divorced, wasn’t it technically just a big fat lie in front of wedding guests when they promised “till death do us part”? Doesn’t this lie make it “fake”? How do you know for sure they really even truly meant those words the day of their wedding? Isn’t it rude to the guests whom wasted their time and money in attending this wedding? If you think this sounds absolutely ridiculous, I agree. Now you know how I felt reading this thread.

Next, yes, lying is wrong. My three year old could answer this question, so I won’t debate this fact. However, what I will do is debate whether or not withholding information is considered lying. When you were little did the Easter bunny leave you a basket? Did Santa visit your house on Christmas Eve? Did you put a tooth under your pillow for the tooth fairy? Were your parents a bunch of no good lairs? Is taking your kid to see someone dressed up as a fake Santa pretending to be something they are not, wrong? Is it ok for adults to lie to kids if the end result is enjoyment, but not ok for adults to lie to adults if the end result is enjoyment? They are just kids, so it doesn’t count if you lie to a kid, you just can’t lie to another adult. Right? Kids, are less important, right?

Let me get this straight, you would have a problem with attending a wedding where a married women you care about is dressed up like a bride; but you will spend time and money to take your kid to see some random guy you don’t know that’s dressed up like Santa or the Easter bunny. Wait, I thought it was never ever ok to lie under any circumstances, period. Especially, lying to your family whom you love.

That’s right, this is just stupid make believe kid stuff, it’s not something important like a legal marriage between two adults, this shit is real. But, I am guessing if you ask any young kid chances are those things are very real to them because that’s what you made them believe. If that’s the case, you are saying it’s really NOT wrong to lie or withhold information from our loved ones, it just depends on the particular situation. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

Honestly, I don’t think anyone, including myself, can sit here and say what we would or wouldn’t do if in this situation. To me, that’s a lot like listening to a women tell me exactly how labor is going to feel that has never had a baby. Now, that’s something I would side eye the shit out of.

It’s a nice thought to think we would all so easily give up the wedding dress, bridesmaids, and everything else deemed inappropriate by some unwritten law of etiquette; but the truth is all we can really do is make assumptions. I am sure a lot of couples ending up in a divorce thought their marriages were going to go a certain way, but in reality we really don’t know until we walk down that path. I know, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the point I’m currently making, your going to say, “well they made the decision to get married early for benefits, if those things were important to them they should have waited like I did.” Hold on, I’m getting to that part.

Let’s talk about what’s most important. I read a lot of comments about the current struggles of the gay and lesbian community for the legal rights of marriage. How it’s a slap in the face to these individuals fighting so hard when other couples have PPD’s just because their first wedding ceremony was not good enough. I agree, a marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper; it’s a piece of paper representing the legal benefits not everyone is allowed just because of whom they choose to love. The only thing that really makes a couple married is the license and ALL the other stuff is just extra unnecessary fluff.

Ok, if I understand this right, it’s a slap in the face to gays and lesbians because a couple decides the marriage license isn’t enough and they want all the extra unimportant fluff that isn’t required. But, it’s NOT a slap in the face to these communities when they watch people whom can so easily have these benefits anytime they choose, decide to go years and years without them just so they can do it the “right” way with all the unimportant extras.

There are couples whom would give their right tit to have these benefits right now today, but for couples, like myself, we aren’t happy with just those benefits and we want all the other material aspects not necessary to gain these benefits. Here, these gay and lesbian couples are fighting, struggling so hard just to get these benefits and we think it’s some noble feat because we choose to struggle so hard to go without these benefits just so we can have a wedding with all the extra unneeded fluff.

Why isn’t the marriage license enough for any of us? If being committed and married to our best friend for the rest of our lives is the most important thing, then why the hell do we wait years to do it? If you really think about it, labels aside, we all are just having Pretty Princess Days because NONE of it is really necessary. It’s like, you know honey, I really love and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but until we can afford all the extras, I am just not ready to make this commitment legally.

Finally, if this had been any other post, I would read it, roll my eyes, quietly disagree and then, go on with my life. Although, when a group of women decide to make this a “sticky”, it sends the message that these opinions on what’s considered “proper etiquette” or “right” about a situation they have never personally experienced, aside from just being a guest, is not an opinion, but an undisputed fact. When the fact is that everyday as a society we change, grow with the times and in the process discover things we once thought were proper or the right way is not necessarily true anymore.

Times are changing as we now have states recognizing that not allowing everyone the right to get married is not proper and is not the right way. Today, times are harder than ever for a lot of people whom are struggling with finances or obtaining affordable healthcare. So, to tell these people that just because times are difficult now they can not later have the wedding ceremony they have always dreamed of just doesn’t seem like the proper or right way to handle the situation. There is a reason why the “wedding police” does not exist.

I am sure there are those whom only have a second wedding ceremony just because they want to gain money or gifts, but it’s not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s like giving everyone a speeding ticket just because one person decided not to obey the traffic laws. This is America, the land of the FREE, where you can make your dreams come true at anytime in your life regardless of the difficult past you may have been dealt. I won't judge people for the choices they make or which family members they choose to lie to, that's God's job, not mine.

Because I know this comment is coming, I do realize this is long, so you don't have to state the obvious. What can I say, you ladies gave me a lot of good points to dispute. Still, I don't think it's any longer than OP and I figured why not get it all out on one page instead of 20 more.

Respect. You certainly explained it better than I can.

beam20062010 · February 2014

SKPM said:

beam20062010 said:

Normally, I would just read a thread and move on. However, this time I feel the need to speak up and voice my opinion. After reading this I can understand why there are not a lot of other people wanting to jump in with opposing views for fear of being labeled a “troll” or dealing with negative comments.

Although, after 20 pages, I think it’s safe to say this topic is not as cut and dry as you want people to believe. No, I do not plan on getting married before our wedding date. But, this thread was a little hard to miss and it did get me thinking a lot, so I wanted to share some of things I still don’t quite understand.

For instance, the comment about how as adults we must make difficult decisions in life and we must also learn to live with these decisions. Why does this only apply to weddings? Why is there no concern that the divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. alone? I don’t get how people can look down their noses and show such disgust over how many wedding events a couple has or what they choose to call them; but yet divorce is such commonplace in our society.

I don’t get why it’s so important that a couple must live with their decision on how they get married, but do not have to live with their decision to get married. Something is very wrong with this picture. I understand there are instances (ex. abusive relationships, cheating spouse etc.) that a couple could not have foreseen prior to making this legal commitment. This is why we have divorce. Even though no one held a gun to their heads and made them get married, we realize there are exceptions to every rule. Well, that is of course, unless your an engaged couple whom might encounter unforeseen circumstances prior to getting married, then, you must live with your decisions.

I am guessing anyone whom has had a divorce can give you a whole list of reasons/excuses why their marriage did not stand the test of time. So, if we also later find out the couple is now divorced, wasn’t it technically just a big fat lie in front of wedding guests when they promised “till death do us part”? Doesn’t this lie make it “fake”? How do you know for sure they really even truly meant those words the day of their wedding? Isn’t it rude to the guests whom wasted their time and money in attending this wedding? If you think this sounds absolutely ridiculous, I agree. Now you know how I felt reading this thread.

Next, yes, lying is wrong. My three year old could answer this question, so I won’t debate this fact. However, what I will do is debate whether or not withholding information is considered lying. When you were little did the Easter bunny leave you a basket? Did Santa visit your house on Christmas Eve? Did you put a tooth under your pillow for the tooth fairy? Were your parents a bunch of no good lairs? Is taking your kid to see someone dressed up as a fake Santa pretending to be something they are not, wrong? Is it ok for adults to lie to kids if the end result is enjoyment, but not ok for adults to lie to adults if the end result is enjoyment? They are just kids, so it doesn’t count if you lie to a kid, you just can’t lie to another adult. Right? Kids, are less important, right?

Let me get this straight, you would have a problem with attending a wedding where a married women you care about is dressed up like a bride; but you will spend time and money to take your kid to see some random guy you don’t know that’s dressed up like Santa or the Easter bunny. Wait, I thought it was never ever ok to lie under any circumstances, period. Especially, lying to your family whom you love.

That’s right, this is just stupid make believe kid stuff, it’s not something important like a legal marriage between two adults, this shit is real. But, I am guessing if you ask any young kid chances are those things are very real to them because that’s what you made them believe. If that’s the case, you are saying it’s really NOT wrong to lie or withhold information from our loved ones, it just depends on the particular situation. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

Honestly, I don’t think anyone, including myself, can sit here and say what we would or wouldn’t do if in this situation. To me, that’s a lot like listening to a women tell me exactly how labor is going to feel that has never had a baby. Now, that’s something I would side eye the shit out of.

It’s a nice thought to think we would all so easily give up the wedding dress, bridesmaids, and everything else deemed inappropriate by some unwritten law of etiquette; but the truth is all we can really do is make assumptions. I am sure a lot of couples ending up in a divorce thought their marriages were going to go a certain way, but in reality we really don’t know until we walk down that path. I know, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the point I’m currently making, your going to say, “well they made the decision to get married early for benefits, if those things were important to them they should have waited like I did.” Hold on, I’m getting to that part.

Let’s talk about what’s most important. I read a lot of comments about the current struggles of the gay and lesbian community for the legal rights of marriage. How it’s a slap in the face to these individuals fighting so hard when other couples have PPD’s just because their first wedding ceremony was not good enough. I agree, a marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper; it’s a piece of paper representing the legal benefits not everyone is allowed just because of whom they choose to love. The only thing that really makes a couple married is the license and ALL the other stuff is just extra unnecessary fluff.

Ok, if I understand this right, it’s a slap in the face to gays and lesbians because a couple decides the marriage license isn’t enough and they want all the extra unimportant fluff that isn’t required. But, it’s NOT a slap in the face to these communities when they watch people whom can so easily have these benefits anytime they choose, decide to go years and years without them just so they can do it the “right” way with all the unimportant extras.

There are couples whom would give their right tit to have these benefits right now today, but for couples, like myself, we aren’t happy with just those benefits and we want all the other material aspects not necessary to gain these benefits. Here, these gay and lesbian couples are fighting, struggling so hard just to get these benefits and we think it’s some noble feat because we choose to struggle so hard to go without these benefits just so we can have a wedding with all the extra unneeded fluff.

Why isn’t the marriage license enough for any of us? If being committed and married to our best friend for the rest of our lives is the most important thing, then why the hell do we wait years to do it? If you really think about it, labels aside, we all are just having Pretty Princess Days because NONE of it is really necessary. It’s like, you know honey, I really love and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but until we can afford all the extras, I am just not ready to make this commitment legally.

Finally, if this had been any other post, I would read it, roll my eyes, quietly disagree and then, go on with my life. Although, when a group of women decide to make this a “sticky”, it sends the message that these opinions on what’s considered “proper etiquette” or “right” about a situation they have never personally experienced, aside from just being a guest, is not an opinion, but an undisputed fact. When the fact is that everyday as a society we change, grow with the times and in the process discover things we once thought were proper or the right way is not necessarily true anymore.

Times are changing as we now have states recognizing that not allowing everyone the right to get married is not proper and is not the right way. Today, times are harder than ever for a lot of people whom are struggling with finances or obtaining affordable healthcare. So, to tell these people that just because times are difficult now they can not later have the wedding ceremony they have always dreamed of just doesn’t seem like the proper or right way to handle the situation. There is a reason why the “wedding police” does not exist.

I am sure there are those whom only have a second wedding ceremony just because they want to gain money or gifts, but it’s not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s like giving everyone a speeding ticket just because one person decided not to obey the traffic laws. This is America, the land of the FREE, where you can make your dreams come true at anytime in your life regardless of the difficult past you may have been dealt. I won't judge people for the choices they make or which family members they choose to lie to, that's God's job, not mine.

Because I know this comment is coming, I do realize this is long, so you don't have to state the obvious. What can I say, you ladies gave me a lot of good points to dispute. Still, I don't think it's any longer than OP and I figured why not get it all out on one page instead of 20 more.

WHO. The word you're so frequently looking for is "who." I read the entire post but I couldn't get past the incessant misuse of the word "whom."

Wow, really? I figured the length would definitely get some comments. But, after reading the last 20 pages, I had no idea such a grammatical error could possibly keep someone from understanding the points I was trying to get across. I apologize that this was something you could not get past.

WinstonsGirl · February 2014

beam20062010 said:

LDay2014 said:

I got lost somewhere after the first paragraph...

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist. Sorry

Stuck in box........

Your completely right, so don't be sorry! I think it's reasonable to assume I am well aware of this fact. However, does this fact of not existing make it ok to lie? That's the point I'm making. I'm not debating if they are real or not real.

Actually, I was responding to LDay2014, not assuming you were not aware of the fact.

chibiyui · February 2014

beam20062010 said:

Normally, I would just read a thread and move on. However, this time I feel the need to speak up and voice my opinion. After reading this I can understand why there are not a lot of other people wanting to jump in with opposing views for fear of being labeled a “troll” or dealing with negative comments.

Although, after 20 pages, I think it’s safe to say this topic is not as cut and dry as you want people to believe. No, I do not plan on getting married before our wedding date. But, this thread was a little hard to miss and it did get me thinking a lot, so I wanted to share some of things I still don’t quite understand.

For instance, the comment about how as adults we must make difficult decisions in life and we must also learn to live with these decisions. Why does this only apply to weddings? Why is there no concern that the divorce rate is over 50% in the U.S. alone? I don’t get how people can look down their noses and show such disgust over how many wedding events a couple has or what they choose to call them; but yet divorce is such commonplace in our society.

I don’t get why it’s so important that a couple must live with their decision on how they get married, but do not have to live with their decision to get married. Something is very wrong with this picture. I understand there are instances (ex. abusive relationships, cheating spouse etc.) that a couple could not have foreseen prior to making this legal commitment. This is why we have divorce. Even though no one held a gun to their heads and made them get married, we realize there are exceptions to every rule. Well, that is of course, unless your an engaged couple whom might encounter unforeseen circumstances prior to getting married, then, you must live with your decisions.

I am guessing anyone whom has had a divorce can give you a whole list of reasons/excuses why their marriage did not stand the test of time. So, if we also later find out the couple is now divorced, wasn’t it technically just a big fat lie in front of wedding guests when they promised “till death do us part”? Doesn’t this lie make it “fake”? How do you know for sure they really even truly meant those words the day of their wedding? Isn’t it rude to the guests whom wasted their time and money in attending this wedding? If you think this sounds absolutely ridiculous, I agree. Now you know how I felt reading this thread.

Next, yes, lying is wrong. My three year old could answer this question, so I won’t debate this fact. However, what I will do is debate whether or not withholding information is considered lying. When you were little did the Easter bunny leave you a basket? Did Santa visit your house on Christmas Eve? Did you put a tooth under your pillow for the tooth fairy? Were your parents a bunch of no good lairs? Is taking your kid to see someone dressed up as a fake Santa pretending to be something they are not, wrong? Is it ok for adults to lie to kids if the end result is enjoyment, but not ok for adults to lie to adults if the end result is enjoyment? They are just kids, so it doesn’t count if you lie to a kid, you just can’t lie to another adult. Right? Kids, are less important, right?

Let me get this straight, you would have a problem with attending a wedding where a married women you care about is dressed up like a bride; but you will spend time and money to take your kid to see some random guy you don’t know that’s dressed up like Santa or the Easter bunny. Wait, I thought it was never ever ok to lie under any circumstances, period. Especially, lying to your family whom you love.

That’s right, this is just stupid make believe kid stuff, it’s not something important like a legal marriage between two adults, this shit is real. But, I am guessing if you ask any young kid chances are those things are very real to them because that’s what you made them believe. If that’s the case, you are saying it’s really NOT wrong to lie or withhold information from our loved ones, it just depends on the particular situation. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

Honestly, I don’t think anyone, including myself, can sit here and say what we would or wouldn’t do if in this situation. To me, that’s a lot like listening to a women tell me exactly how labor is going to feel that has never had a baby. Now, that’s something I would side eye the shit out of.

It’s a nice thought to think we would all so easily give up the wedding dress, bridesmaids, and everything else deemed inappropriate by some unwritten law of etiquette; but the truth is all we can really do is make assumptions. I am sure a lot of couples ending up in a divorce thought their marriages were going to go a certain way, but in reality we really don’t know until we walk down that path. I know, even though it doesn’t have anything to do with the point I’m currently making, your going to say, “well they made the decision to get married early for benefits, if those things were important to them they should have waited like I did.” Hold on, I’m getting to that part.

Let’s talk about what’s most important. I read a lot of comments about the current struggles of the gay and lesbian community for the legal rights of marriage. How it’s a slap in the face to these individuals fighting so hard when other couples have PPD’s just because their first wedding ceremony was not good enough. I agree, a marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper; it’s a piece of paper representing the legal benefits not everyone is allowed just because of whom they choose to love. The only thing that really makes a couple married is the license and ALL the other stuff is just extra unnecessary fluff.

Ok, if I understand this right, it’s a slap in the face to gays and lesbians because a couple decides the marriage license isn’t enough and they want all the extra unimportant fluff that isn’t required. But, it’s NOT a slap in the face to these communities when they watch people whom can so easily have these benefits anytime they choose, decide to go years and years without them just so they can do it the “right” way with all the unimportant extras.

There are couples whom would give their right tit to have these benefits right now today, but for couples, like myself, we aren’t happy with just those benefits and we want all the other material aspects not necessary to gain these benefits. Here, these gay and lesbian couples are fighting, struggling so hard just to get these benefits and we think it’s some noble feat because we choose to struggle so hard to go without these benefits just so we can have a wedding with all the extra unneeded fluff.

Why isn’t the marriage license enough for any of us? If being committed and married to our best friend for the rest of our lives is the most important thing, then why the hell do we wait years to do it? If you really think about it, labels aside, we all are just having Pretty Princess Days because NONE of it is really necessary. It’s like, you know honey, I really love and want to spend the rest of my life with you, but until we can afford all the extras, I am just not ready to make this commitment legally.

Finally, if this had been any other post, I would read it, roll my eyes, quietly disagree and then, go on with my life. Although, when a group of women decide to make this a “sticky”, it sends the message that these opinions on what’s considered “proper etiquette” or “right” about a situation they have never personally experienced, aside from just being a guest, is not an opinion, but an undisputed fact. When the fact is that everyday as a society we change, grow with the times and in the process discover things we once thought were proper or the right way is not necessarily true anymore.

Times are changing as we now have states recognizing that not allowing everyone the right to get married is not proper and is not the right way. Today, times are harder than ever for a lot of people whom are struggling with finances or obtaining affordable healthcare. So, to tell these people that just because times are difficult now they can not later have the wedding ceremony they have always dreamed of just doesn’t seem like the proper or right way to handle the situation. There is a reason why the “wedding police” does not exist.

I am sure there are those whom only have a second wedding ceremony just because they want to gain money or gifts, but it’s not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. That’s like giving everyone a speeding ticket just because one person decided not to obey the traffic laws. This is America, the land of the FREE, where you can make your dreams come true at anytime in your life regardless of the difficult past you may have been dealt. I won't judge people for the choices they make or which family members they choose to lie to, that's God's job, not mine.

Because I know this comment is coming, I do realize this is long, so you don't have to state the obvious. What can I say, you ladies gave me a lot of good points to dispute. Still, I don't think it's any longer than OP and I figured why not get it all out on one page instead of 20 more.

Cool story bro.

I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs, the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette.

Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board. Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board.

beam20062010 · February 2014

WinstonsGirl said:

beam20062010 said:

LDay2014 said:

I got lost somewhere after the first paragraph...

Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist. Sorry

Stuck in box........

Your completely right, so don't be sorry! I think it's reasonable to assume I am well aware of this fact. However, does this fact of not existing make it ok to lie? That's the point I'm making. I'm not debating if they are real or not real.

Actually, I was responding to LDay2014, not assuming you were not aware of the fact.

Ok....I guess I am the one that was lost. I just thought the comment was directed at my post since I was the one that was talking about both Santa and the Easter Bunny. I apologize.

WildMagelet · February 2014

chibiyui said:

Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board. Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board.

This. All of this. I read your argument and I understand it, beam, although I don't necessarily agree with everything you said. This is an etiquette board. The only reason this has gone on and on for 21 pages is because people keep trying to argue that PPDs aren't against etiquette. If someone wants to have a PPD then nobody is going to stop them. There are no wedding police lurking around the corner to make sure brides don't commit faux pas. The point of this board is discussion and education on etiquette. Poor etiquette ideas will not be condoned here.

beam20062010 · February 2014

"Cool story bro.

I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs, the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette.

Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board. Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board."

chibiyui, It was wasn't a story and I am not your "bro" because that's just not possible. But, thanks all the same. I had no idea there was a "traditional definition of a PPD". What publication can I find this definition?

My "story" was not claiming that PDD's are not a "misdirection on the couples legal martial status" or lying or withholding holding information from their guests. I agreed that this is lying. What I wanted to know was how everyone can say lying is completely wrong all the time. But yet, we lie to our loved ones (kids) all the time and this is perfectly acceptable behavior in our society.

Why are several lies to our family (kids) acceptable behavior in our society, but the one lie to our family (adults) is not acceptable behavior in society. Who makes these rules of proper etiquette for our society and who decides when they change? Isn't it safe to say that proper etiquette is always changing throughout history?

I don't expect any of you to give up your beliefs and I wouldn't want you to. It would be an awful place if we all just agreed with each other. I'm simply just trying to debate some of the facts that support your beliefs. I think most people are not looking for a stranger's approval on etiquette, but what facts require them as such.

beam20062010 · February 2014

flutterbride2b said:

chibiyui said:

Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board. Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board.

This. All of this. I read your argument and I understand it, beam, although I don't necessarily agree with everything you said. This is an etiquette board. The only reason this has gone on and on for 21 pages is because people keep trying to argue that PPDs aren't against etiquette. If someone wants to have a PPD then nobody is going to stop them. There are no wedding police lurking around the corner to make sure brides don't commit faux pas. The point of this board is discussion and education on etiquette. Poor etiquette ideas will not be condoned here.

What don't you agree with and why? I'm trying to understand. I already know you think it is proper etiquette. I am trying to have a discussion on etiquette. However, I guess what bothered me the most was that this thread was not created for discussion, but to tell brides look here, this is how it is regardless of what you or anyone else think.

chibiyui · February 2014

beam20062010 said:

"Cool story bro.

I think the big issue here is this. While justification for PPD's range from shallow attention whore to actual "valid" reasons, and while individuals are entirely allowed to have their own subjective opinions on PPDs, the traditional definition of "PPD" involves misdirection on the couples legal marital status. It does not pass etiquette.

Do not expect a pass on a PPD on the etiquette board. Do not expect people to not point out that it is against etiquette on the etiquette board. Do not get upset that people on the etiquette board are saying it is against etiquette. You want a PPD? Fine, no one really cares. But there will not be approval for something that beaks etiquette on the etiquette board."

chibiyui, It was wasn't a story and I am not your "bro" because that's just not possible. But, thanks all the same. I had no idea there was a "traditional definition of a PPD". What publication can I find this definition?

My "story" was not claiming that PDD's are not a "misdirection on the couples legal martial status" or lying or withholding holding information from their guests. I agreed that this is lying. What I wanted to know was how everyone can say lying is completely wrong all the time. But yet, we lie to our loved ones (kids) all the time and this is perfectly acceptable behavior in our society.

Why are several lies to our family (kids) acceptable behavior in our society, but the one lie to our family (adults) is not acceptable behavior in society. Who makes these rules of proper etiquette for our society and who decides when they change? Isn't it safe to say that proper etiquette is always changing throughout history?

I don't expect any of you to give up your beliefs and I wouldn't want you to. It would be an awful place if we all just agreed with each other. I'm simply just trying to debate some of the facts that support your beliefs. I think most people are not looking for a stranger's approval on etiquette, but what facts require them as such.

There are plenty of people who come one here for validation of their "PPD's" I am actually on the usually-don't-give-a-fuck side, I know friends who have had PPD's, and I don't hold it against them.

That said, dude, this is an etiquette wedding board. If you want to get into philosopical discussions and debates about lying, morality and the crushing ennui of being, this isn't the place. As far as lying is concerned, there are plenty of socially acceptable times to lie, or maybe more accurately, times where lying is judged on a sliding scale from harmless to heinous.

And please, you know very well that PPD is an idiom in common use on the TK forums, and has not gained mainstream use. Give Websters 5 years to catch up.

Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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