Wedding Etiquette Forum

Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

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Re: Legally married, now having a "real" wedding? Stop here first! (AKA, the PPD FAQ thread)

  • More often than not, the people engaging in PPD's are doing so because they secretly wed to obtain government benefits only afforded married couples. This is not true. Many simple want the same rights as NON MARRIED couples. 

    The problem here is there seems to be a pass for same sex couples who are PROHIBITED from marrying in their own states. This is correct- any form of marriage discrimination, including towards the LGBT community is absolutely horrid and disgusting.

    However- there seems to be no understanding that MANY people of DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES (ie American/ Non-EU) who legal wed do NOT want or take any benefits (medical, housing etc.) but want the SAME benefits afforded to non-married EU couples or American couples which is SIMPLY TO BE ON THE SAME CONTINENT!

    karimichele13 as well this is the case. They simply want want other NON MARRIED couples have. 

    How is it that discrimination against one community is frowned upon but not another?

    All these couples want is the right to stay on the same continent as their SO, a right UNLIKE medical insurance, hospital visitation etc. they WOULD have if they were UNMARRIED but the same citizenry. 

    People who want the same rights as the unmarried (to be on the same continent as their SO) are told on this site they have a choice between having rights that unmarried Americans, Canadians and other EU citizens have or having a wedding and that is wrong. 

    It is not the same as getting married for a benefit you can only have if you are married as this benefit- being on the same continent - is one afforded to millions who are not married. 

    There is outrage and a "pass" given when same sex couples cannot get married, but no outrage for different citizenship couples who cannot stay on the same continent due to political issues... (The same political issues that have perpetuate bigotry against same sex couples).
    karimichele
  • chibiyuichibiyui The Boring Part of MD member
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    More often than not, the people engaging in PPD's are doing so because they secretly wed to obtain government benefits only afforded married couples. This is not true. Many simple want the same rights as NON MARRIED couples. 


    The problem here is there seems to be a pass for same sex couples who are PROHIBITED from marrying in their own states. This is correct- any form of marriage discrimination, including towards the LGBT community is absolutely horrid and disgusting.

    However- there seems to be no understanding that MANY people of DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES (ie American/ Non-EU) who legal wed do NOT want or take any benefits (medical, housing etc.) but want the SAME benefits afforded to non-married EU couples or American couples which is SIMPLY TO BE ON THE SAME CONTINENT!

    karimichele13 as well this is the case. They simply want want other NON MARRIED couples have. 

    How is it that discrimination against one community is frowned upon but not another?

    All these couples want is the right to stay on the same continent as their SO, a right UNLIKE medical insurance, hospital visitation etc. they WOULD have if they were UNMARRIED but the same citizenry. 

    People who want the same rights as the unmarried (to be on the same continent as their SO) are told on this site they have a choice between having rights that unmarried Americans, Canadians and other EU citizens have or having a wedding and that is wrong. 

    It is not the same as getting married for a benefit you can only have if you are married as this benefit- being on the same continent - is one afforded to millions who are not married. 

    There is outrage and a "pass" given when same sex couples cannot get married, but no outrage for different citizenship couples who cannot stay on the same continent due to political issues... (The same political issues that have perpetuate bigotry against same sex couples).
    .......

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  • Why is this thread up to 36 pages? Seriously people, it's not that hard to understand!
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  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
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    edited May 2014

    Schatzi13 said:
    More often than not, the people engaging in PPD's are doing so because they secretly wed to obtain government benefits only afforded married couples. This is not true. Many simple want the same rights as NON MARRIED couples. 

    The problem here is there seems to be a pass for same sex couples who are PROHIBITED from marrying in their own states. This is correct- any form of marriage discrimination, including towards the LGBT community is absolutely horrid and disgusting.

    However- there seems to be no understanding that MANY people of DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES (ie American/ Non-EU) who legal wed do NOT want or take any benefits (medical, housing etc.) but want the SAME benefits afforded to non-married EU couples or American couples which is SIMPLY TO BE ON THE SAME CONTINENT!

    karimichele13 as well this is the case. They simply want want other NON MARRIED couples have. 

    How is it that discrimination against one community is frowned upon but not another?

    All these couples want is the right to stay on the same continent as their SO, a right UNLIKE medical insurance, hospital visitation etc. they WOULD have if they were UNMARRIED but the same citizenry. 

    People who want the same rights as the unmarried (to be on the same continent as their SO) are told on this site they have a choice between having rights that unmarried Americans, Canadians and other EU citizens have or having a wedding and that is wrong. 

    It is not the same as getting married for a benefit you can only have if you are married as this benefit- being on the same continent - is one afforded to millions who are not married. 

    There is outrage and a "pass" given when same sex couples cannot get married, but no outrage for different citizenship couples who cannot stay on the same continent due to political issues... (The same political issues that have perpetuate bigotry against same sex couples).
    Please post this in an immigration community and see how far you get. I've seen the argument that immigration is a right before, and it doesn't end well for the OP. Here are the general responses:

    1) No one has a right to live in a country where that person does not hold citizenship. Having a family member in the US does not change this; it only opens visa opportunities.

    2) The US government grants its citizens (and longterm/permanent residents) the privilege of sponsoring certain family members for visas. Note the word "privilege."

    3) A couple could also live in the SO's country or a third country. (That would include going through that country's immigration system, see 1.)


    If you want to talk rights issues when it comes to family-based immigration, go back to before parts of DOMA were struck down by SCOTUS last year. Because the federal government did not recognize same-sex couples as married, fiance(e) and spousal visas - which operate at a federal level - were not available to a portion of the people who otherwise would have been able to file for them.


    As to the rest of this post, family-based immigration is not to be used so that dating couples or FWBs or BFFs can "be on the same continent." It is so that families - married couples, parents and children, siblings - can live together in the US.
    Pretty sure that statement is one of the few things every country in the world have in common. 

      If YOU (as an individual) do not have citizenship you have no rights in that country.  Period. Marital status has no baring.    Sure martial status helps in the visa/permanent resident and becoming a citizen process, but it's in no way a guarantee.  

    It's one of the consequences of marrying someone with a different citizenship.






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
    PrettyGirlLost
  • I call B.S. on the immigration issue as well.  One of my sisters as well as one of my former bosses/friends both married foreigners and neither of them had PPDs.  
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  • Wow that got out of hand. Sorry, never meant for this to be a discussion on immigration. SCOTUS and theknot should probably not be used in the same sentence. The above arguments illustrate the point that there are far worse tragedies in life than a couple getting married twice.

    That was just my person example. I know plenty of other people who have done this for far different reasons, including a same sex couple. People went to the wedding, cried during the ceremony, ate cake, and the sun continued to rise in the East. No one had anything negative to say. As far as I can tell this is becoming more and more common. Perhaps I am just in a very rude or selfish social circle.

    I also don't think theknot.com is the appropriate place to be telling people they in fact can't have their dream wedding as it is a website where people come to do just want. Seems bizarre to me.

    That's all. I've said my peace.
    dwhereicome
  • JCbride2015JCbride2015 Dirty Jerz member
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    Wow that got out of hand. Sorry, never meant for this to be a discussion on immigration. SCOTUS and theknot should probably not be used in the same sentence. The above arguments illustrate the point that there are far worse tragedies in life than a couple getting married twice.

    That was just my person example. I know plenty of other people who have done this for far different reasons, including a same sex couple. People went to the wedding, cried during the ceremony, ate cake, and the sun continued to rise in the East. No one had anything negative to say. As far as I can tell this is becoming more and more common. Perhaps I am just in a very rude or selfish social circle.

    I also don't think theknot.com is the appropriate place to be telling people they in fact can't have their dream wedding as it is a website where people come to do just want. Seems bizarre to me.

    That's all. I've said my peace.

    This particular board is an etiquette board. So, while we are able to talk about anything marriage or wedding related on The Knot, this particular topic sidesteps proper etiquette and will get side-eye on this board. So, don't be surprised when you do not get support for this particular plan within this thread and board.

    Secondly,the only time you can get married twice to the same person is if you divorce in between. You can get married twice otherwise only due to divorce or death. So, what you are doing is NOT getting married twice. It's getting married and then doing a renewal or re-enactment.

    Everyone on here would love to have the wedding of their dreams. It's a common want and theme around here. However, noone is entitled to it. Some people had to give up on their dream wedding due to finances, some due to starting a family early, and some due to medical or legal concerns. Some people's dream wedding is just signing the papers with little to no fanfare. For every post you see about someone excited about booking their dream reception venue, you'll see one about a dream venue not being within budget or being booked up. Not everyone gets to live the dream. There are lots of people on here who are just thankful that they are able to get married.

    Preach it Jells!
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    "I'm not a rude bitch.  I'm ten rude bitches in a large coat."

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  • I can see having a reception to celebrate but not a second ceremony. Celebrate? Yes. Do-over? No. Save that for a big anniversary and have a recommitment ceremony or vow renewal.
    PrettyGirlLostgrumbledoreSimky906
  • I can see having a reception to celebrate but not a second ceremony. Celebrate? Yes. Do-over? No. Save that for a big anniversary and have a recommitment ceremony or vow renewal.

    Exactly. Should be such a simple concept

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

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  • dwhereicomedwhereicome member
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    edited May 2014
    Deleted duplicate post
  • chibiyui Also, please show me how anything said on here could possibly be "bullying". Disagreeing with someone is not bullying. Having a heated discussion is not bullying. 

    JCBride2014 “Nobody's bullying.  We are having an honest, constructive conversation about how she can work within her limits to have a meaningful wedding.”

    Apparently we have a different view of bullying AND etiquette. 

    I will use The Knot definition as this is The Knot:

    1. Zero Tolerance for Bullies

    Malicious, petty and/or personal attacks of any kind are unacceptable... Personal attacks include, but are not limited to: starting a thread with a user’s name as the topic/title to “bash” them, linking to a thread to call out a user on their post, thoughts or beliefs (not a topic), calling a username out maliciously... using images (memes, gifs, etc.) in a direct attack/vicious manner, etc.

    I would say a Gif with a knife that demonstrates an attack and says FUCK in big red letters certainly conforms to the rules above.

    As does telling someone: "you have a thick damn skull" and saying that she specifically has "disgusting and selfish behavior."

    Same with saying that another human is not human, a beast, dog, ass and saying they specifically have “shitty ideas and bad manners” (“I don't think she IS human”, “let this sleeping dog lie (no pun intended because this attitude is beyond disgusting,”) “do not feed this beast”, “Let this dog lie." “STBMrsEverhart, with every post, you make a bigger ass of yourself. ...find another site where your shitty ideas and bad manners will be validated.")

    Lastly, while this does NOT constitute bullying, I certainly find comments like this poor etiquette. It is pretty hard to take etiquette advice from women who speak like this and I would be certain the same Miss Manners who was quoted in the first post would be horrified to see people saying things such as:

    ·         I feel incredibly bad for everyone who feels wearing a fucking princess dress and parading around for attention is more important than being spiritually and legally bound to the love of one's life. I feel even worse for anyone who thinks that part is a fucking 'technicality.' "

    ·         ‘I don't appreciate being fucking lied to...  If I wanted to see a fucking play I'd buy a ticket to a legitimate theatrical production in a theater.”

    ·         “for fuck's sake, of all the condescending crap I have read on these boards. . . I don't give a flying rat's ass about the opinion of some unnamed Academic thrown down from his Ivory Tower.” 

    ·         “you have a thick damn skull. Ugh. Our neighbor lets his dog shit all over our neighborhood. Maybe I should go beat the hell out of him.”

     

     

    That said, there are certain women on this board who have not resorted to speaking crudely and have explained their opposition to two weddings in articulate and thoughtful ways. While I disagree with them, I do appreciate that they way they have explained themselves and class with which they have conducted themselves. 

    perdonami
  • InkdancerInkdancer The Shire member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Anniversary First Answer
    @Molly12345 Just fyi, the gif that says fuck in red is someone's signature. It's an image from a video game and is not intended as an attack. All of her posts end with this gif--it isn't directed at anyone in particular.

    I am sorry that cursing bothers you. Many of us here on the E-board see no problem with it, especially in such an informal setting as a message board. I would ask you to give some grace to our regular posters who see the same poorly-mannered excuses for the same basic breaches of etiquette all the time, and have become both very passionate and very fed up with trying to explain the issue.

    The bottom line is this: have a party for whatever you want, but be up front with the people you love about what you're doing and don't lie to them.
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  • @molly12345 says: "I would say a Gif with a knife that demonstrates an attack and says FUCK in big red letters certainly conforms to the rules above."

    Yep, you probably would say that. You would be wrong, again.

    If you're an animated character in that video game, and were actually being chased by another animated character in that video game, that might be true.

    If you're not a character in the video game, and you view this as bullying, you're trying really hard to be offended and play victim. Nothing you listed above is bullying. 

    Given your previous posts (being denied the "right" to live on the same continent and how is that different than discrimination against gay people blah blah) I get the impression that you enjoy playing the victim, and enjoy whining. 

    Like that post, this one is utter bullshit. (Note that use of the word "bullshit" is neither bullying nor a personal attack, but a commonly used expression of disbelief and contempt, in this case for the ideas expressed in your posts.)

    chibiyuiJCbride2015cupcait927PrettyGirlLost
  • Just back from the gym, great workout. Tabata its way better than crossfit.

    Inkdancer - I have no issue with cursing. None at all. I never said I did. I have an issue with people who create a board to preach about Ms. Manners and are overly pedantic proper etiquette cursing. That's all. In general I actually agree with you that cursing is fine on message boards - and perhaps even E-boards but not in the aforementioned ways. In fact, now that you mentioned it I might browse the posts that justify it on E-boards- I'm genuinely curious about the 

    ohannabelle I love the victim stuff its so funny! Because if you read what I wrote you will notice that none - not one- of the examples I cited were directed at me or after a post I created so I'm unsure why you think I'm a victim. Not one. All these comments were focused on responses to the 22 other women who posted their stories. 

    You will notice most of those women stopped responding. They gave up which is sad and unfortunate. I did not. Additionally, I do not feel like a victim which is why I am still posting. I am quite strong in who I am. However, I do wish those other women weren't scared off- it would have created a much more meaningful discussion. 

    My point was that if the main intent of the post was to start an open dialogue than those women would have stayed. Unfortunately, it was not. Instead, it seems the point of this sticky was to pedantically preach a single pedagogy without any desire to engage in meaningful discuss about the issue. 

     

    MeeglinsOnceinalovetimelarae85kitty8403DaphneM7 (page 5), @STBMrsEverhartOnceUponSnowAnaelseaSabinus15sissixinleelabearTerriHuggbeam20062010carringtonleighjnissadianaloveserikAroundTheBlocksydneyvioletclassyduckRgagne2003karimichele13Danrenee411perdonami (page 34).

     

    While I do understand why some people might be offended by lying to guests, I also think those who are offended should try to understand the reasons and positions of the women listed above. Many people choose not to lie about their legal marriage and have a wedding after a legal marriage with guests knowing but many to conceal this. Many feel they need to get legally married for reasons that make sense to them (not to you) and feel that contractual signing does not constitute a real wedding for them.

     

    Note- nothing I am saying applies to people who get legally married so they can have their anniversary on a specific date and have a wedding after. That I do not agree with.

    I recognize that for heterosexual couples having a wedding after a (sometimes secret) legal marriage is a choice – however it is also a choice not to get offended! In fact, in western democracies almost everything we do is a choice from what we eat, to where we go to college, to what we name our children (and having worked in USAID in developing countries I can certainly appreciate all those choices!) I know from watching friends make this choice that it was not an easy one make. It was not one made callously or impulsively. Many wished they did not have to make this choice.  However, the choice that others faces- to get offended or not about a fake/real wedding after a legal marriage- is not nearly as difficult. It is pretty simple: Your friends and family have decided to have a (open/secret) civil marriage followed by a real/big wedding/party. They have come to this decision after much difficult deliberation and reflection. One can choose to be offended this decision or chose to support them and understand that for them it is important to have a real wedding and say their vows in front of family/friends and for them it is not a re-enactment but a meaningful and special of how they feel that they have invited you to witness. 

  • @chibiyui As a Zelda fan myself, when I saw your gif I giggled to myself. If you weren't familiar with this game and just got through reading a lot of the comments on this thread you may become confused and think its an attack on those who disagree with a PPD as bad etiquette. Although, I don't see any knives or any indication of a fight scene.

    Not trying to rile anyone up here or change the subject away from PPD's, but sometimes these threads do get a little out of control. I have seen some first time posters eaten alive when they ask about something they didn't know was bad etiquette. And I am fairly new myself so I am also unaware of how often newbies come on here and pick fights with folks who may have gently explained etiquette to the point they are just sick to death of explaining proper etiquette to someone who is overly defensive and therefore just don't care about the delivery of the message, just the message itself. Which if I am right, I can totally understand that frustration.

    Although I wouldn't call any of this bullying but I could see how someone may feel uncomfortable posting questions on this site after reading a thread like this. Of course this thread has reached levels of ridiculousness that I have never seen before. 

    However, despite some of the ridiculousness and circular arguments, I think this thread has been very helpful to those who would like to gather some ideas on how to celebrate their marriage without offending their guests. There are ways to celebrate your union with your guests and loved ones without lying or being rude to them. Sure, it may not be exactly what you dreamed of your whole life, but you can still have a lovely and special day. 
  • Are people really getting their panties in a twist over Link jumping off a bridge? Jeez louise...
    I can't even handle this thread anymore.


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  • HeatherKatHeatherKat the Frozen Tundra member
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    @Mrshutzler, I find the shark in your signature to be very menacing. I'm pretty sure I'm being bullied by it.
    Amor vincet omnia.... par liones.
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  • pinkshorts27pinkshorts27 Oregon member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments First Anniversary First Answer
    chibiyui said:
    So, now that I am home and on my desktop and not mah phone:

    Unless you are this...person, I am not threatening you:

    image

    If you're this guy, IT'S ON MOTHERFUCKER.
    I was so confused when she referred to your sig as threatening. It took a while. I call bullshit on her not knowing what Zelda was. Your gif doesn't really show the knife and clearly aren't attacking, but running and falling off that damn bridge again. Which I have done many times. 

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    chibiyui
  • chibiyui said:
    So, now that I am home and on my desktop and not mah phone:

    Unless you are this...person, I am not threatening you:

    image

    If you're this guy, IT'S ON MOTHERFUCKER.
    Well, I was on my phone in class when I read your comment and it literally made me laugh out loud. I had to quietly place my phone in my purse and apologize.

    As for my username being referenced, I just want to make it clear that I am not condoning PPD's. I was merely referencing that all big fancy weddings seem to be a pretty princess day in the aspect that there is a bride prancing about in a big white poufy dress (at least I am anyway) and there is a lot of money that is being spent by the bride and groom (at least I am anyway) that perhaps could be used for a better purpose, like lets say buy a house. 

    But, like I said in a comment immediately proceeding said comment, I guess its okay to have a special day to celebrate your love if you do so appropriately by being completely honest and host your guests properly. Those things don't happen when you host a PPD. 

    Like many PPs have said, no one is saying you can't have a beautiful celebration for your love and host those closet to you to partake in such a celebration. Just be honest with your guests and understand you can't have a second wedding day by repeating vows for them to watch. Give a quick speech about how grateful everyone came out to celebrate your special day and why you love your spouse. I don't see why that can't be just as special as a big fancy wedding. 
    lightningsnowJCbride2015chibiyuiKauris
  • @Mrshutzler, I find the shark in your signature to be very menacing. I'm pretty sure I'm being bullied by it.
    Yes. Oh. I am such a bully. I am so aggressive. Fear me.
    My colors are "blood of my enemies" and "rage".

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  • @Molly12345 said: One can choose to be offended this decision or chose to support them and understand that for them it is important to have a real wedding....

    Really? Why, thank you. I was married 32 years ago by a JOP, quietly, with only our two best friends to witness. I am so grateful to know that this wasn't a "real" wedding. I have been operating under the silly assumption that our wedding was genuine in every respect and it never occurred to me that I needed a big dress and a big reenactment with a live audience to make it "real." 
    Actually in some communities, this would not be recognized socially. As was addressed quite eloquently by AroundtheBlock on page 26 (geez this really has been going on forever) ""Marriage" certainly does have a legal dimension. It is, however, observed by anthropologists to exist across all human cultures, in varying forms, including cultures that do not have a legal system, cultures in which the legal system does not address marriage, and cultures (like the twenty-first century west) where social marriage can and does exist separate from legal marriage."

    Specifically this means in certain communities another ceremony would be required to religously and socially recognize a legal union.

    True story, even in the US in 2014

  • @Molly12345 said: One can choose to be offended this decision or chose to support them and understand that for them it is important to have a real wedding....

    Really? Why, thank you. I was married 32 years ago by a JOP, quietly, with only our two best friends to witness. I am so grateful to know that this wasn't a "real" wedding. I have been operating under the silly assumption that our wedding was genuine in every respect and it never occurred to me that I needed a big dress and a big reenactment with a live audience to make it "real." 
    Actually in some communities, this would not be recognized socially. As was addressed quite eloquently by AroundtheBlock on page 26 (geez this really has been going on forever) ""Marriage" certainly does have a legal dimension. It is, however, observed by anthropologists to exist across all human cultures, in varying forms, including cultures that do not have a legal system, cultures in which the legal system does not address marriage, and cultures (like the twenty-first century west) where social marriage can and does exist separate from legal marriage."

    Specifically this means in certain communities another ceremony would be required to religously and socially recognize a legal union.

    True story, even in the US in 2014

    You, of course, ignored the part that says "cultures in which the legal system does not address marriage". So yeah, if we're talking about a commitment ceremony for a gay couple, sure. Not a PPD for someone who ran to the courthouse to get the legal benefits of marriage.
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