Well... I just got gutted. - Update in thread

huskypuppy14 · December 2014

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

anjemon · December 2014

I'm just going to add some virtual hugs and feel better vibes. I'm sorry things didn't go as you hoped.

PrettyGirlLost · December 2014

huskypuppy14 said:

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, these are all Cluster B personality disorders.

KatieinBkln · December 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

huskypuppy14 said:

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, these are all Cluster B personality disorders.

I am definitely not trying to discount very real disorders which are no doubt really terrible for the people who have them, but...from Novella's perspective (and anyone who has do actually DEAL with people) I'm pretty sure the only thing that matters is that her sister has Asshole Disorder. As a non-psychologist, licensed Bullshit Sensor, I am 100% sure of that diagnosis.

novella1186 · December 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

huskypuppy14 said:

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, these are all Cluster B personality disorders.

Yeah I've actually read about all of these (one of my majors as an undergrad was psych) and the crazy thing is, my dad fits Narcissistic Personality Disorder to a T. Like I swear they were writing specifically about him. My sister fits BPD eerily well, and both disorders come with an inability to admit wrongdoing. These personality traits seem to run in the family on my dad's side. It's kind of scary.

PrettyGirlLost · December 2014

KatieinBkln said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

huskypuppy14 said:

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, these are all Cluster B personality disorders.

I am definitely not trying to discount very real disorders which are no doubt really terrible for the people who have them, but...from Novella's perspective (and anyone who has do actually DEAL with people) I'm pretty sure the only thing that matters is that her sister has Asshole Disorder. As a non-psychologist, licensed Bullshit Sensor, I am 100% sure of that diagnosis.

Oh yeah, my point was that there are a number of plausible disorders, but since none of us that are commenting are psychologists who are actually seeing her sister, there's no real point and no good can come of us throwing out diagnoses for funsies.

novella1186 · December 2014

KatieinBkln said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

huskypuppy14 said:

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, these are all Cluster B personality disorders.

I am definitely not trying to discount very real disorders which are no doubt really terrible for the people who have them, but...from Novella's perspective (and anyone who has do actually DEAL with people) I'm pretty sure the only thing that matters is that her sister has Asshole Disorder. As a non-psychologist, licensed Bullshit Sensor, I am 100% sure of that diagnosis.

This is true. I can't amateur-diagnose people, but even if I'm right, it won't do me any good other than to learn a better way of dealing with her. I wish she would go to counseling, but since she thinks she's never wrong, she'll never think she needs counseling.

morewineplease · December 2014

I am sorry your going through this.

If you do not agree with your therapist you might need a new one. I had to leave one once because she told me "I would be happy when I met a man"…

I had some very large family drama and a friend recommended that I write a letter to the person expressing my feelings. It allowed me to make several drafts to get the wording just right. After I got it all out, even before sending it, I was feeling better about my feelings and was able to let some things go. It might help you even if you don't send the letter getting things out in writing on how you see what happened it might help.

novella1186 · December 2014

morewineplease said:

I am sorry your going through this.

If you do not agree with your therapist you might need a new one. I had to leave one once because she told me "I would be happy when I met a man"…

I had some very large family drama and a friend recommended that I write a letter to the person expressing my feelings. It allowed me to make several drafts to get the wording just right. After I got it all out, even before sending it, I was feeling better about my feelings and was able to let some things go. It might help you even if you don't send the letter getting things out in writing on how you see what happened it might help.

SIB
I was actually just thinking about doing this. Back when the original fight happened, I wrote my sister the MEANEST, nastiest, most cut-throat email I've ever written in my life. I made sure to put MY e-mail address in the "to:" field and not hers. I sent it to myself, re-read it a few times, laughed about some of my insults to her, and then deleted it and felt so much better. Thanks for the suggestion!

phira · December 2014

I know finding a therapist whom you can afford, who can fit you into their schedule, and who clicks with you can be difficult and stressful, but I think it's time to find another therapist.

Speaking as someone who is estranged from family members, I don't think closure is something that is healthy to aspire to get. Sometimes, it happens, sometimes it doesn't, but actively seeking it often results in just more pain.

And closure itself is really vague. What does closure mean to you? Is it just, "I did everything I could?" The problem there is that you probably have a jerkbrain (like I do) that says, "Well, you could do this or that. Then you could say you tried. But you haven't tried enough yet." But there's never "enough." Ever. It never feels like it's enough.

Does closure mean repairing the relationship? Then it's not closure.

A therapist who pressures you--against your explicit wishes/comfort zone--to pour more of yourself into fixing a relationship that's toxic to you is not a good therapist for you.

jdluvr06 · December 2014

Sending you (((hugs)))

PrettyGirlLost · December 2014

novella1186 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

huskypuppy14 said:

You need a break from your family. I'm sorry.

Also, I'm not a psychologist by any means, but could she have narcissistic personality disorder? If so, she'll never apologize because she doesn't think she did anything wrong, because she will never think she does anything wrong.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Histrionic personality disorder, these are all Cluster B personality disorders.

Yeah I've actually read about all of these (one of my majors as an undergrad was psych) and the crazy thing is, my dad fits Narcissistic Personality Disorder to a T. Like I swear they were writing specifically about him. My sister fits BPD eerily well, and both disorders come with an inability to admit wrongdoing. These personality traits seem to run in the family on my dad's side. It's kind of scary.

Behaviors can absolutely be learned and reinforced over time until a person is an adult.

HaileyDancingbear · December 2014

novella1186 said:

I guess I need to figure out how to just let all this go without any closure or resolution. Which I told my therapist, that I need to stop dwelling and let it go, but she said if I got no resolution, this would all come back to bite me later, so I thought "Ok I'm gonna contact my sister and I'm gonna make all this work out and it's all going to be ok." I feel like an idiot for thinking that.

Sooner or later I'm going to have to learn how to not let her get to me so much or this is going to keep tearing me to shreds, and I really hate feeling this bad. Ugh. I just wish I knew what to do.

I view your sister's response as closure, though- it seems like you've been unsure of what would happen if you reached out again, asking yourself if you should keep trying to apologize etc. and now that question has been answered- she will continue to be crazy, place all blame on you, and continue to make you feel like shit.

I think your therapist isn't really thinking all that hard about the concept of closure. It doesn't necessarily mean that you and your sister have to either kiss and make up or declare each other mortal enemies, and I think that's what your therapist is expecting, which is idiotic- life doesn't always work that way, and frankly telling you to keep going back to the people that put you through so much abuse until you get that, is horrible advice.

I think closure just needs to be an answer to your "What ifs." It's hard to get past a situation when you're asking yourself "What if I reached out again, what if I apologized again, what if etc." and I view closure as just answering those what ifs so you can move on feeling more certain about your decision.

You got your "What if" answered- "If I reach out and apologize again, she will still not acknowledge anything she did wrong, meaning the problem still exists- that I am in a relationship where I am always trying to prove that I am not nasty, that I am always going to be trying to prove that I am not trying to hurt you, that I can be reasonable, that I can apologize etc. yet you will never have to prove anything or apologize for anything, or alter your behavior at all, because everything YOU do will be on MY shoulders, and will be another reason I have to 'prove' I can forgive." You've gotten closure by trying your best to patch things up and work with this person, and her response has given you an image of the road ahead if you continue to keep her in your life. Your closure is her showing you that the issues you two have, are never-ending.

Now you know what happens if you keep trying to reach out. Your therapist is an idiot for making you seek "closure" that relies entirely on your sister being cooperative with your attempts to make up- if you want to get past this, you have to get YOURSELF past it, not wait for your sister to help you, because she won't. Not even by saying why she's mad.

YOU need to really think about how this person makes you feel, how this person has affected your life, and how this person's actions have shown nothing can improve from here, no matter how hard your try, and you need to allow that to be enough for you, just the definite answer she's given you, that there is no fixing this, not to the extent that you can have a stable, healthy relationship, as the ball is now entirely in the court of someone who will never admit any guilt. You need to think about going through this shit again and again for the rest of your life, and you need to be the one to decide that's not a road you're willing to go down.

smgold6 · December 2014

sending you lots of hugs as well as T & P.

novella1186 · December 2014

HaileyDancingbear said:

novella1186 said:

I guess I need to figure out how to just let all this go without any closure or resolution. Which I told my therapist, that I need to stop dwelling and let it go, but she said if I got no resolution, this would all come back to bite me later, so I thought "Ok I'm gonna contact my sister and I'm gonna make all this work out and it's all going to be ok." I feel like an idiot for thinking that.

Sooner or later I'm going to have to learn how to not let her get to me so much or this is going to keep tearing me to shreds, and I really hate feeling this bad. Ugh. I just wish I knew what to do.

I view your sister's response as closure, though- it seems like you've been unsure of what would happen if you reached out again, asking yourself if you should keep trying to apologize etc. and now that question has been answered- she will continue to be crazy, place all blame on you, and continue to make you feel like shit.

I think your therapist isn't really thinking all that hard about the concept of closure. It doesn't necessarily mean that you and your sister have to either kiss and make up or declare each other mortal enemies, and I think that's what your therapist is expecting, which is idiotic- life doesn't always work that way, and frankly telling you to keep going back to the people that put you through so much abuse until you get that, is horrible advice.

I think closure just needs to be an answer to your "What ifs." It's hard to get past a situation when you're asking yourself "What if I reached out again, what if I apologized again, what if etc." and I view closure as just answering those what ifs so you can move on feeling more certain about your decision.

You got your "What if" answered- "If I reach out and apologize again, she will still not acknowledge anything she did wrong, meaning the problem still exists- that I am in a relationship where I am always trying to prove that I am not nasty, that I am always going to be trying to prove that I am not trying to hurt you, that I can be reasonable, that I can apologize etc. yet you will never have to prove anything or apologize for anything, or alter your behavior at all, because everything YOU do will be on MY shoulders, and will be another reason I have to 'prove' I can forgive." You've gotten closure by trying your best to patch things up and work with this person, and her response has given you an image of the road ahead if you continue to keep her in your life. Your closure is her showing you that the issues you two have, are never-ending.

Now you know what happens if you keep trying to reach out. Your therapist is an idiot for making you seek "closure" that relies entirely on your sister being cooperative with your attempts to make up- if you want to get past this, you have to get YOURSELF past it, not wait for your sister to help you, because she won't. Not even by saying why she's mad.

YOU need to really think about how this person makes you feel, how this person has affected your life, and how this person's actions have shown nothing can improve from here, no matter how hard your try, and you need to allow that to be enough for you, just the definite answer she's given you, that there is no fixing this, not to the extent that you can have a stable, healthy relationship, as the ball is now entirely in the court of someone who will never admit any guilt. You need to think about going through this shit again and again for the rest of your life, and you need to be the one to decide that's not a road you're willing to go down.

I need to print this stuff out, make a book out of it, and just keep reading it. This is pretty brilliant advice, IMO. You guys have given me some really amazing insight and advice through all of this and it has been more helpful than anything else.

novella1186 · December 2014

So I have a follow-up question. To those of you who have said that you had to distance yourself from people like this, and those people learned that if they treat you like garbage you're going to go away, and it helped:

Do I simply stop talking to her (which would pretty much be just continuing on with things as they are since we don't talk) or do I need to say something to her? Would I say something like "I'm sorry we couldn't resolve this but the way you speak to me is too hurtful blah blah blah so I won't be interacting with you until you can learn not to treat me like garbage." Or is that gonna trigger more backlash? But if I don't say something, does the point still get across? What would be the best way to go about that?

NYCMercedes · December 2014

Hugs!

mikenberger · December 2014

novella1186 said:
So I have a follow-up question. To those of you who have said that you had to distance yourself from people like this, and those people learned that if they treat you like garbage you're going to go away, and it helped:

Do I simply stop talking to her (which would pretty much be just continuing on with things as they are since we don't talk) or do I need to say something to her? Would I say something like "I'm sorry we couldn't resolve this but the way you speak to me is too hurtful blah blah blah so I won't be interacting with you until you can learn not to treat me like garbage." Or is that gonna trigger more backlash? But if I don't say something, does the point still get across? What would be the best way to go about that?

For me, having the dialogue of "I'm sorry we can't resolve this but..." Is opening yet another door for her to walk through and spew her venom. It just allows her another conversation to not give you the things you're looking for from her. And, I believe, it gives her more ammo to give your mother. Which is NOT something your mother needs.

I would continue with the way things are, accept her as she is, accept the relationship for how it is and work on healing you. You don't have to subject yourself to her. There is no rule saying that.

buttercup1958 · December 2014

Honestly I just let those people fade

PrettyGirlLost · December 2014

I haven't been on this exact situation, but every time you go back to your sister or mother with any mention of what's going on you are giving them both the exact reaction they are trying to get from you.

Don't give them what they want. In dealing with your sister that means you just stop talking to her, I guess.

mikenberger · December 2014

I tell you this my friend, with as much love as possible for someone I've never met but for someone that has walked a mile in your shoes and probably gave you my old ones (so sorry. Them shoes are ugly.)...

The next time you think "I should reach out to my sister one more time and try to reconcile." Find the nearest brick/concrete/very hard wall and introduce your forehead to it. The headache you receive from this action is about the equivalent of the headache and heartache from reaching out to your sister

lovedryn · December 2014

novella1186 said:
So I have a follow-up question. To those of you who have said that you had to distance yourself from people like this, and those people learned that if they treat you like garbage you're going to go away, and it helped:

Do I simply stop talking to her (which would pretty much be just continuing on with things as they are since we don't talk) or do I need to say something to her? Would I say something like "I'm sorry we couldn't resolve this but the way you speak to me is too hurtful blah blah blah so I won't be interacting with you until you can learn not to treat me like garbage." Or is that gonna trigger more backlash? But if I don't say something, does the point still get across? What would be the best way to go about that?

Personally, I didn't have that follow up conversation to inform the venom spewing person / people why ties were cut. I simply ceased all communication and contact with them. And if they attempted to get in touch and asked why we were no longer in contact, I was very blunt. Sure feelings will be hurt and toes will be stepped on, but sometimes that is what is needed.

At first my family was rude and hateful and trashed my FI and myself on their social media and to their friends / family. You just have to ignore that initial hurtful backlash. Eventually when you don't acknowledge or feed their need to hurt you, its not so fun anymore. They lose that sadistic fullfullment that came from hurting you. Hopefully these people grow up or get help and realize how absolutely wretched their behavior was. Or at the very least, if they value your relationship enough, they will learn to leash that behavior in regards to you and your SO in order to maintain the relationship.

Its tough. But in the long run it makes for a happier and healthier you! Sometimes tough love is the best love.

levioosa · December 2014

Hugs to you.

I also vote for finding another therapist.

I am no longer in contact with my Dad's mom. She's a terrible, manipulative, and hateful person. When I was in my early twenties, I decided I didn't need such a toxic person in my life anymore. I didn't tell her I was cutting off contact, I just stopped calling her, visiting her, and at family parties I limit our contact to saying hi and giving a brief hug. She just ignores me, which is totally fine. She thinks she's hurting me, but I honestly don't have two shits to give. My life is much more peaceful without trying to please a person who is impossible to please. She talks a lot of crap about me, but I don't let it bother me. Anyone who really knows me gets what is happening (and everyone in our family also knows that she is BSC). She will never apologize. She will never admit she is ever in the wrong. Not my problem anymore.

I think your sister's email was closure, after a fashion. It was closure by omission. By not responding, she actually gave you her answer. You can move on. You just have to make the choice to move on. Losing a sister, a best friend, is incredibly painful, but once you have had time to heal you will be in a much better place. You can't control her actions, and she very well might be mentally ill, but you can control how you react and process what is happening. Allow yourself to be empowered by making the choice to put it in your past, and separate yourself from toxic influences. Give yourself time to grieve the end of a relationship. It has to be a conscious choice, and it's one which will take time.

I'd also like to add that doing this doesn't necessarily mean you are cutting her off forever. If she gets her head out of her ass and comes around and apologizes, then by all means, talk to her, don't ignore her. But at this point you are like a bird trying desperately to fly into a house and repeatedly running into the glass window. It isn't working. You are hurting yourself. There's a ton of beauty outside, so focus on that and let it go. You'll need time to heal but it sounds like you have a great supportive FI and extended family. Just take a deep breath and deal with one day at a time.

plainjane0415 · December 2014

I have nothing to offer but **hugs** So sorry for all the crap she has said and done.. Vent all you need to here!

larrygaga · December 2014

I don't think you have a good therapist. You do need one to help you learn to move on, because she should know that you did everything you could to fix the situation with your sister. She also super violated HIPAA by pretending like she knew your sister's diagnoses and then sharing it with you. The hell is that???

*Hugs*

wandajune6 · December 2014

It sounds like your sister is invested in making you feel awful. Any attempts you make at mending things are just going to give her more ammunition. Why torment yourself?

I understand the concept of missing your sister but it sounds like the woman you're describing isn't the sister you used to be close to. She sounds more like an angry monster that I'd personally want to escape.

She wants you to spend endless energy feeling awful. It doesn't sound like she's worth the effort.

Hugs.

steph861 · December 2014

I am so sorry you've had to put up with this bullshit for so long. It frustrates me that your parents keep taking her side, and I don't even know your family. I can only imagine how frustrated you must feel.

doeydo · December 2014

I don't think I have read all of what your sister has done to you, so take this with a grain of salt, I suppose. But I agree with this:

KatieinBkln said:

*Collapsed to save space**

Just one other thing--honestly, the main reason it doesn't seem like a great idea to reach out to your sister? You're still mad at her. You have a right to be. But for real, is there a single thing she could say to you except for a heartfelt apology that would make you feel better? Given that you're unlikely to get an apology (or even an explanation, but frankly unless you murdered her puppy, the level of punishment she's subjecting you to is unreasonable, and I'm like 99% sure you didn't inadvertently do something as horrible as puppy-killing), what is the point of even talking to her?

I guess I could see the point of a periodic "Hi, just checking in to say I still love you and I'm around if you want to be normal again." IF you were really and truly ready to let bygones be bygones. But I don't think it's really to that point yet--you're still hurt and mad, as evidenced by how upset you were by her response.

You still sound mad and like you have a grudge (which you rightfully do, I guess) but you kind of seemed passive aggressive (by pointing out that you already apologized and by kind of asking for an explanation or "something") here and on an e-mail (I think that was the kind of communication it was, just recently) before. IMO, she is not going to apologize or anything, so if you want to say something like the bolded and just move on over the BS might be the best way to go if you do want to reach out again.

larrygaga · December 2014

novella1186 said:

So I have a follow-up question. To those of you who have said that you had to distance yourself from people like this, and those people learned that if they treat you like garbage you're going to go away, and it helped:

Do I simply stop talking to her (which would pretty much be just continuing on with things as they are since we don't talk) or do I need to say something to her? Would I say something like "I'm sorry we couldn't resolve this but the way you speak to me is too hurtful blah blah blah so I won't be interacting with you until you can learn not to treat me like garbage." Or is that gonna trigger more backlash? But if I don't say something, does the point still get across? What would be the best way to go about that?

The one time I just needed to do it, I just stopped talking to her. I view that last word as being desperate, which I never personally want to be. I think the point gets across fine if you stop talking to her. Block her on your phone or delete her, so you stop having the temptation to say something! Trust me, it works. You can always get the number from someone else if you need it again. But hopefully you won't. I think you will realize how poisonous this relationship is to you, and to be frank I don't think she wants to speak with you anyway. From all I read, it really seems like she doesn't want a relationship with you. She seems to want nothing to do with you. I am sorry to put it that way, but I believe brutal honesty is better than false hope. This is sort of like a break-up. It's really really incredibly hard at first, but it will get easier as time goes on. Maybe someday you can be sisters again, but for now it's not happening. She is the one that has to change, not you. You did what you could, and the best thing for you right now is to try and move on.

Regarding your Mom, you need to tell her that it's between the two of you, and you put it into your sisters hands now. She needs to stay out of it, as you are both adults and can fight just fine without her. Then bean dip the shit out of her.

Well... I just got gutted. - Update in thread

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