Not trying, but not being as careful...

holyguacamole79

holyguacamole79 said:

KatieinBkln said:

now this is coming from someone with fertility issues).  I know quite a few people who temp and chart when they are TTC (even if they don't have issues).  It's helpful to know when you ovulate so you can be sure to have sex at thath point.  It can also help you idenitfy other issues you may have when TTC.  For example, my last luteal phase was a bit short, so that's something I want to keep an eye on and discuss with my doctor.

Maybe I've gotten used to it, but it really isn't that stressful.  I update my chart with my temps and any other signs I see and I add the stickers to it to show when I was (or wasn't) fertile.    

Re: this bolded--I think this could be solved by havin' sex all the time, haha. (Of course one is not always in the mood, I get it. I just can't see that a person without known fertility problems really needs to know, if that makes sense).

Tee hee, my husband would agree with you on that one!!!  

And honestly, I know of women who didn't know they had fertility issues or quirks until they started charting and knowing what to look for.  I mean, if you're having sex 24/7 for 6 months and still not seeing a 2nd line on a HPT, it can be frustrating.  Once you start charting, you get an idea of when you're ovulating, if you have good cervical mucus, if your luteal phase is long enough, etc.    

lyndausvi

holyguacamole79 said:

KatieinBkln said:

bubblegum1309 said:

JennyColada said:

I imagine that when DH and I are ready to TTC that I will stop my BC (take out my IUD) and then just continue life on as normal. I'm not really into taking a vaginal temperature or anything like that. So I guess our version of actively TTC is to make the conscious choice to not take BC and call it a day. I guess in a few years if we still don't get pregnant that then I'd make more of an effort, but we'll figure that out if it gets to it.

So I guess that would be "not trying and not preventing", but somehow it just feels...different.

This was what I was thinking. H and I have talked about a time frame of when I will go off BC. For some reason I am scared I wont be able to have kids or it will be really challenging to get pregnant. There is no reason for me feeling like this.. I just tend to over think things. So I think the "not trying / not preventing" method would be a way to take some stress off of me. That if I don't' get pregnant right away its ok, we weren't actively trying (temping, charting etc).

Okay, this is not specifically aimed only at you, but the bolded made me curious.

Am I missing something? When people want to get pregnant, do they not just...go off birth control, start taking prenatal vitamins, quit drinking, and start fucking? Is that not a thing anymore? Is temping and charting the norm now? I totally get it for people with fertility issues, of course. But for the average woman who is just starting to TTC for the first time (and maybe this is just my inherent laziness talking) isn't that a lot of unnecessary work and stress?

I can only speak for myself (and yes, I know this is coming from someone with fertility issues).  I know quite a few people who temp and chart when they are TTC (even if they don't have issues).  It's helpful to know when you ovulate so you can be sure to have sex at thath point.  It can also help you idenitfy other issues you may have when TTC.  For example, my last luteal phase was a bit short, so that's something I want to keep an eye on and discuss with my doctor.

Maybe I've gotten used to it, but it really isn't that stressful.  I update my chart with my temps and any other signs I see and I add the stickers to it to show when I was (or wasn't) fertile.    

Yes, it is a "thing now".    Which I kind of think is sad.  Even my own doctor suggested charting, temping, testing and all kinds of other shit after my first year off the BC.   I'm like WTF?  Did I say I'm all upset I'm not pregnant yet?  No, I didn't.   Just because a woman is not on BC doesn't mean she is obsessing on why she is not pregnant.  6 years later I still haven't done shit to find out why after being off the pill for 6 years I've never been pregnant. 

 On that note I fucking hate all the fucking categories.  Enough already.   I stopped BC because I just wanted to.  After 16 years I was over taking a pill everyday.  I had no desire for any other form of BC either.   I was just done.      

However, just because I stopped the pill didn't mean I all the sudden jumped on the "OMG I want to have a child NOW train".   

 At least to me the TTC people have a goal to have a child. In a lot of cases they have planned out their lives to the point that they are ready for that child NOW. They often do whatever it takes to reach that goal (temping, testing, charting) in the quickest time possible.    

Well you know what? I'm neutral to having kids.  It's never been a goal of mine, but at the same time I'm open if it happens.    

I guess I'm on the "I like to fuck my husband, but do not have a specific goal of creating a child as a result of our fucking" train.    

That is if I really need to be put in a category which it seems everyone feels the need to put me in.

banana468

lyndausvi said:

holyguacamole79 said:

KatieinBkln said:

bubblegum1309 said:

JennyColada said:

I imagine that when DH and I are ready to TTC that I will stop my BC (take out my IUD) and then just continue life on as normal. I'm not really into taking a vaginal temperature or anything like that. So I guess our version of actively TTC is to make the conscious choice to not take BC and call it a day. I guess in a few years if we still don't get pregnant that then I'd make more of an effort, but we'll figure that out if it gets to it.

So I guess that would be "not trying and not preventing", but somehow it just feels...different.

This was what I was thinking. H and I have talked about a time frame of when I will go off BC. For some reason I am scared I wont be able to have kids or it will be really challenging to get pregnant. There is no reason for me feeling like this.. I just tend to over think things. So I think the "not trying / not preventing" method would be a way to take some stress off of me. That if I don't' get pregnant right away its ok, we weren't actively trying (temping, charting etc).

Okay, this is not specifically aimed only at you, but the bolded made me curious.

Am I missing something? When people want to get pregnant, do they not just...go off birth control, start taking prenatal vitamins, quit drinking, and start fucking? Is that not a thing anymore? Is temping and charting the norm now? I totally get it for people with fertility issues, of course. But for the average woman who is just starting to TTC for the first time (and maybe this is just my inherent laziness talking) isn't that a lot of unnecessary work and stress?

I can only speak for myself (and yes, I know this is coming from someone with fertility issues).  I know quite a few people who temp and chart when they are TTC (even if they don't have issues).  It's helpful to know when you ovulate so you can be sure to have sex at thath point.  It can also help you idenitfy other issues you may have when TTC.  For example, my last luteal phase was a bit short, so that's something I want to keep an eye on and discuss with my doctor.

Maybe I've gotten used to it, but it really isn't that stressful.  I update my chart with my temps and any other signs I see and I add the stickers to it to show when I was (or wasn't) fertile.    

Yes, it is a "thing now".    Which I kind of think is sad.  Even my own doctor suggested charting, temping, testing and all kinds of other shit after my first year off the BC.   I'm like WTF?  Did I say I'm all upset I'm not pregnant yet?  No, I didn't.   Just because a woman is not on BC doesn't mean she is obsessing on why she is not pregnant.  6 years later I still haven't done shit to find out why after being off the pill for 6 years I've never been pregnant. 

 On that note I fucking hate all the fucking categories.  Enough already.   I stopped BC because I just wanted to.  After 16 years I was over taking a pill everyday.  I had no desire for any other form of BC either.   I was just done.      

However, just because I stopped the pill didn't mean I all the sudden jumped on the "OMG I want to have a child NOW train".   

 At least to me the TTC people have a goal to have a child. In a lot of cases they have planned out their lives to the point that they are ready for that child NOW. They often do whatever it takes to reach that goal (temping, testing, charting) in the quickest time possible.    

Well you know what? I'm neutral to having kids.  It's never been a goal of mine, but at the same time I'm open if it happens.    

I guess I'm on the "I like to fuck my husband, but do not have a specific goal of creating a child as a result of our fucking" train.    

That is if I really need to be put in a category which it seems everyone feels the need to put me in.

Lynda pretty much summed it up.   The other end is that if you're knowingly having sex while being open to life but avoiding fertile times, you're using NFP to avoid.   Then you're not trying.

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

jenna8984

@lyndausvi I don't really know any close friends in your situation. My friends are all "I want a baby today or I'm going IVF" or "I despise kids and want to get my tubes tied". I don't really have friends that share your perspective so thank you for sharing.

Maggie0829

banana468 said:

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see it that way.  Having unprotected sex means that you are open to having a baby.  If you are not open to having one then use birth control.  I don't see the need to label one person who is trying harder then another as TTC while the other is TTW.  Both are open to having a baby and splitting people up into groups can make others feel like what they are doing is wrong.  It is like the whole breast feeding, not breast feeding debate. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what works for that person.  Charting, temping and whatever else vs just letting nature run its course are both fine decisions to make and each person chooses their own path, but to say that because one person is letting nature run its course is not really TTC is just not okay.

banana468

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see it that way.  Having unprotected sex means that you are open to having a baby.  If you are not open to having one then use birth control.  I don't see the need to label one person who is trying harder then another as TTC while the other is TTW.  Both are open to having a baby and splitting people up into groups can make others feel like what they are doing is wrong.  It is like the whole breast feeding, not breast feeding debate. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what works for that person.  Charting, temping and whatever else vs just letting nature run its course are both fine decisions to make and each person chooses their own path, but to say that because one person is letting nature run its course is not really TTC is just not okay.

But you can also have unprotected sex while successfully TTA with NFP.   You're not understanding that.   I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GET. PREGNANT.   I'll accept life if I do get pregnant but I intend to avoid fertile times.      Going from TTA to TTW and then to TTC can vary per person.   So putting an umbrella over it and saying, "Well you're just trying to have a baby," is a rather cold blanket statement to make.   It's based on the couple and what they want.

The issue that you keep making is the TTA = use birth control and not everyone believes that.   The other part that you don't address is that birth control isn't 100% effective.   So where do you find yourself then?   You don't need to answer me but my belief is that abortion = murder.   That's not a debate to me.   So IMO, if you can't handle a whoops of any kind the you shouldn't be having sex.   

Wegl13

The problem is that if you wanted to talk to someone about your experience (as the OP does) you would clearly get a lot of judgement from the people that are actively TTC, vs what I would consider passively TTC. And I think that judgement comes from how vehemently some people want kids, and how "ready" people perceive you have to be to have a child. So some people have basically prepared financially and career wise to be "ready" for a baby, and now they are working actively to make that baby a reality. Their life is on a FIRM PLAN. And I absolutely thing that there is judgement from that group of people towards a group of people for whom having a FIRM PLAN when it comes to having children, or whatever else, is not as big of a deal.
I will say that I have a hard time with the idea of having a FIRM PLAN as to when or if I want to have children, because I feel that, unlike the decision to get married or purchase a home, there is only so much that is within my control. I can only control not getting pregnant 100% by not having intercourse, although I can decrease my chances to almost nil by using reliable BC. I can do some things to increase my chances of making a baby, but I don't get to pick when, unless I choose to adopt (and even then not really). So right now we don't have a firm plan other than "not now."
I also resent the idea that having doubt/anxiety about parenthood=not ready to be a parent=must be on super reliable BC. It's pretty common to have doubts and anxiety about making huge, everlasting changes in your life, and that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't still be open to those changes. It's kind of just acknowledging how *important* something is.

ashley8918

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

ashley8918 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

elleC14 for most of our marriage.  We've never used any form of BC, and have always been open to kids.  Up until my surgery last March, I had no signs that I was even ovulating, so if we did conceive at that point, we would have been shocked.

We are technically TTC, but we are not as hard-core as other couples.  I'm temping and using the Creighton method of NFP (under the guidance of my obgyn).  But we are not obsessing over it ... partly because we know that we have some fertility issues and I honestly don't want to go crazy taking stuff like Clomid.  We will probably look into adoption later this year.

Okay - So, you were trying (if only halfheartedly, I guess) to get pregnant. You weren't actively preventing. 

I have an IUD and a plan that does not end in me having a baby if I were to get miracle pregnant anyway. I am super actively preventing.

-------------------
As someone who is currently trying to get pregnant, I can honestly tell you that we weren't truly trying before. We knew that it was a possibility, and we were open to it. I'm now taking my Temps every morning, being more diligent in my charting, and taking supplements. I follow up with my NFP instructor and my obgyn regularly. I have bloodwork done monthly to see if I ovulated. If I see signs of fertility, we have sex (even if I'm totally not up for it).

I wasn't doing any of those things before.

Also, too @banana468 's point .... as Catholics, my husband and I will never use any form of artificial birth control. If we find that we are not ready for a pregnancy, we will abstain from sex during my fertile times.

__________________________________






Meh. Call it what you want, but in my opinion if you are having totally unprotected sex, you are TTC. Just because you're not super gung ho about it, doesn't mean that you're not doing something that you KNOW is likely to result in pregnancy. I know you mentioned fertility issues, though, so I get that the likelihood might not have been so high in your case, but I'm speaking in general here.

Also, I never said anything about "artificial" birth control. NFP is a method of BC, just not the one for me. If you are practicing NFP to avoid a pregnancy, you are practicing birth control and not TTC.

You're contradicting yourself.   NFP *is* totally unprotected sex.   There's no sprinkling of Catholic pixie dust on the sheets or some kind of prayer said over an erection to avoid.   The concept with NFP is that you avoid during fertile times when you don't want to conceive.   There are very conservative methods (like not having sex until after you ovulated) and others  that aren't as conservative (having sex before ovulation when you shouldn't be fertile).   Then there's TTC when you *KNOW* that you are in your fertile time and you DTD until you can't walk.   And then there's TTW - when you pay attention to your fertility but you aren't actively trying to do anything.   TTW is probably the most carefree time because you're not making a plan to have sex.   You're basically saying that if the mood is right you'll go for it but if it's not, you're also OK with staying up late to watch football.  

That's much different than being upset that you're going to be on a week long business trip when you know it's the week that you have the green light after ovulation and you will have to wait for up to another month to be intimate again.   It's also much different from being upset that your DH spent all evening talking to a window salesman so your energy for TTC is completely well....out the window.

You can have an opinion on what to call it but well, you know what opinions are like.   :-) 

-------------------------------





Yeah, I'm well aware of how it works, but thanks for the condescension. By "totally unprotected", I mean not using ANY form of birt control (which I said). NFP is a form of birth control, albeit not the one I 100% believe in the effectiveness of, but that's my own deal.


You're also welcome to have your opinion about what way of TTC is more valid. But Not charting and temping and whateverthefuck does not mean that someone is not trying and desperately wanting for a baby.

LadyMillil

jenna8984 said:

KatieinBkln said:

 

Okay, this is not specifically aimed only at you, but the bolded made me curious.

Am I missing something? When people want to get pregnant, do they not just...go off birth control, start taking prenatal vitamins, quit drinking, and start fucking? Is that not a thing anymore? Is temping and charting the norm now? I totally get it for people with fertility issues, of course. But for the average woman who is just starting to TTC for the first time (and maybe this is just my inherent laziness talking) isn't that a lot of unnecessary work and stress?

@katieinbkln Since we are looking to get off my pill in a few months, I asked several friends with children if they did any of the charting/ temp stuff. Every one of them said "no, what are you talking about?" So I don't think it's some new thing that we must do or the new norm.

I've never heard anyone IRL talk about charting/temping. I'm planning on temping when I go off BC in 9 weeks because I want to know if I'm ovulating. It can take several months for you to start ovulating again after being on BC. I don't really want to go back on hormonal BC after having babies because I've had awful side effects in the past couple years so NFP to avoid is a possibility in the future for me, that I want to start learning and practicing now.

elleC14

WHOA this is generating so much interesting debate and conversation!!! I don't have time to read all posts right now but I am happy to see that some people at least seem to see where I am coming from and that I opened up a good discussion that people seem to be engaged by. 

I think that "trying" to have a baby is a spectrum but many people see it as black and white. My argument would be that as long as you are ready to have a baby (meaning, I am taking pre-natals, I limit myself to one drink if I'm going to drink at all, I do not smoke, I exercise, I eat a fairly balanced diet, we're financially stable) and you've discussed it with your partner, then however you want to handle your birth control is up to you. That includes the choice to be deliberately "sloppy" and see what happens. 

To clarify my feelings on the issue of actually getting pregnant a little bit, "freak out" was probably a poor word choice. It's more like I get excited and I'm so curious about what will happen, but I don't feel crushed when Aunt Flo comes to town and I wouldn't feel panic-stricken if she didn't. I guess in that sense maybe the folks who are actively trying to conceive would understand the way I feel a little bit better. 

banana468

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

elleC14 for most of our marriage.  We've never used any form of BC, and have always been open to kids.  Up until my surgery last March, I had no signs that I was even ovulating, so if we did conceive at that point, we would have been shocked.

We are technically TTC, but we are not as hard-core as other couples.  I'm temping and using the Creighton method of NFP (under the guidance of my obgyn).  But we are not obsessing over it ... partly because we know that we have some fertility issues and I honestly don't want to go crazy taking stuff like Clomid.  We will probably look into adoption later this year.

Okay - So, you were trying (if only halfheartedly, I guess) to get pregnant. You weren't actively preventing. 

I have an IUD and a plan that does not end in me having a baby if I were to get miracle pregnant anyway. I am super actively preventing.

------------------- As someone who is currently trying to get pregnant, I can honestly tell you that we weren't truly trying before. We knew that it was a possibility, and we were open to it. I'm now taking my Temps every morning, being more diligent in my charting, and taking supplements. I follow up with my NFP instructor and my obgyn regularly. I have bloodwork done monthly to see if I ovulated. If I see signs of fertility, we have sex (even if I'm totally not up for it). I wasn't doing any of those things before. Also, too @banana468 's point .... as Catholics, my husband and I will never use any form of artificial birth control. If we find that we are not ready for a pregnancy, we will abstain from sex during my fertile times.

__________________________________ Meh. Call it what you want, but in my opinion if you are having totally unprotected sex, you are TTC. Just because you're not super gung ho about it, doesn't mean that you're not doing something that you KNOW is likely to result in pregnancy. I know you mentioned fertility issues, though, so I get that the likelihood might not have been so high in your case, but I'm speaking in general here. Also, I never said anything about "artificial" birth control. NFP is a method of BC, just not the one for me. If you are practicing NFP to avoid a pregnancy, you are practicing birth control and not TTC.

You're contradicting yourself.   NFP *is* totally unprotected sex.   There's no sprinkling of Catholic pixie dust on the sheets or some kind of prayer said over an erection to avoid.   The concept with NFP is that you avoid during fertile times when you don't want to conceive.   There are very conservative methods (like not having sex until after you ovulated) and others  that aren't as conservative (having sex before ovulation when you shouldn't be fertile).   Then there's TTC when you *KNOW* that you are in your fertile time and you DTD until you can't walk.   And then there's TTW - when you pay attention to your fertility but you aren't actively trying to do anything.   TTW is probably the most carefree time because you're not making a plan to have sex.   You're basically saying that if the mood is right you'll go for it but if it's not, you're also OK with staying up late to watch football.  

That's much different than being upset that you're going to be on a week long business trip when you know it's the week that you have the green light after ovulation and you will have to wait for up to another month to be intimate again.   It's also much different from being upset that your DH spent all evening talking to a window salesman so your energy for TTC is completely well....out the window.

You can have an opinion on what to call it but well, you know what opinions are like.   :-) 

------------------------------- Yeah, I'm well aware of how it works, but thanks for the condescension. By "totally unprotected", I mean not using ANY form of birt control (which I said). NFP is a form of birth control, albeit not the one I 100% believe in the effectiveness of, but that's my own deal. You're also welcome to have your opinion about what way of TTC is more valid. But Not charting and temping and whateverthefuck does not mean that someone is not trying and desperately wanting for a baby.

My point is that when you're really trying you should be paying attention.   Those that monitor their fertility are zeroing in on when the best times to have sex will be and you're having sex in those times.   Like it or not, there *is* science behind this.   If you're constantly having sex outside your fertile window because you didn't know that a fertile window existed and you're wondering why you're not pregnant then you should begin to pay attention.        

If you ate the same food over and over again and noticed that it made you have digestive issues, would you just keep eating or would you try to figure out why the digestive issues were there?   Similarly, if you were actively trying to have a baby, after months of wanting to be pregnant, are you honestly saying that at no time you would look into WHY you weren't with child??   

ashley8918

banana468 said:

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see it that way.  Having unprotected sex means that you are open to having a baby.  If you are not open to having one then use birth control.  I don't see the need to label one person who is trying harder then another as TTC while the other is TTW.  Both are open to having a baby and splitting people up into groups can make others feel like what they are doing is wrong.  It is like the whole breast feeding, not breast feeding debate. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what works for that person.  Charting, temping and whatever else vs just letting nature run its course are both fine decisions to make and each person chooses their own path, but to say that because one person is letting nature run its course is not really TTC is just not okay.


But you can also have unprotected sex while successfully TTA with NFP.   You're not understanding that.   I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GET. PREGNANT.   I'll accept life if I do get pregnant but I intend to avoid fertile times.      Going from TTA to TTW and then to TTC can vary per person.   So putting an umbrella over it and saying, "Well you're just trying to have a baby," is a rather cold blanket statement to make.   It's based on the couple and what they want.

The issue that you keep making is the TTA = use birth control and not everyone believes that.   The other part that you don't address is that birth control isn't 100% effective.   So where do you find yourself then?   You don't need to answer me but my belief is that abortion = murder.   That's not a debate to me.   So IMO, if you can't handle a whoops of any kind the you shouldn't be having sex.   

--------------------------------


My plan to not have another includes having an abortion straight away, if my IUD were to somehow catastrophically fail. 100% effective.

And apparently I'm already a murderer. THROW MY ASS IN JAIL!

holyguacamole79

Just another FYI, people who use NFP (especially Catholics) take offense to it being called "birth control".  Sure, many use NFP to avoid a pregnancy and I see how others can classify it as birth control.  Just don't be surprised if we get our feathers ruffled if you call it that.  

theartistformerlyknownas

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

holyguacamole79

elleC14 said:

WHOA this is generating so much interesting debate and conversation!!! I don't have time to read all posts right now but I am happy to see that some people at least seem to see where I am coming from and that I opened up a good discussion that people seem to be engaged by. 

I think that "trying" to have a baby is a spectrum but many people see it as black and white. My argument would be that as long as you are ready to have a baby (meaning, I am taking pre-natals, I limit myself to one drink if I'm going to drink at all, I do not smoke, I exercise, I eat a fairly balanced diet, we're financially stable) and you've discussed it with your partner, then however you want to handle your birth control is up to you. That includes the choice to be deliberately "sloppy" and see what happens. 

To clarify my feelings on the issue of actually getting pregnant a little bit, "freak out" was probably a poor word choice. It's more like I get excited and I'm so curious about what will happen, but I don't feel crushed when Aunt Flo comes to town and I wouldn't feel panic-stricken if she didn't. I guess in that sense maybe the folks who are actively trying to conceive would understand the way I feel a little bit better. 

I get it.  If I were to POAS later this month and see a second line, I'd be thrilled and nervous at the same time.  If I get my period, I won't go run and grab a pint of ice cream to drown my sorrows.  It just means it wasn't this month.

Maggie0829

banana468 said:

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see it that way.  Having unprotected sex means that you are open to having a baby.  If you are not open to having one then use birth control.  I don't see the need to label one person who is trying harder then another as TTC while the other is TTW.  Both are open to having a baby and splitting people up into groups can make others feel like what they are doing is wrong.  It is like the whole breast feeding, not breast feeding debate. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what works for that person.  Charting, temping and whatever else vs just letting nature run its course are both fine decisions to make and each person chooses their own path, but to say that because one person is letting nature run its course is not really TTC is just not okay.

But you can also have unprotected sex while successfully TTA with NFP.   You're not understanding that.   I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GET. PREGNANT.   I'll accept life if I do get pregnant but I intend to avoid fertile times.      Going from TTA to TTW and then to TTC can vary per person.   So putting an umbrella over it and saying, "Well you're just trying to have a baby," is a rather cold blanket statement to make.   It's based on the couple and what they want.

The issue that you keep making is the TTA = use birth control and not everyone believes that.   The other part that you don't address is that birth control isn't 100% effective.   So where do you find yourself then?   You don't need to answer me but my belief is that abortion = murder.   That's not a debate to me.   So IMO, if you can't handle a whoops of any kind the you shouldn't be having sex.   

I am understanding what you are saying.  I just don't agree with it all which is perfectly acceptable.

I just think grouping people into TTA, TTW, TTC or whatever other acronym you want to create is a good idea.

Just because I (general I) may not fit under your TTC category doesn't mean that I want a child any less then you.  It just means that I have decided to go a different route and that is okay.

Lumping people into different groups just makes for hard feelings down the road.  Like for instance if I say "oh we are trying for a baby." And then you say "oh are you temping and charting?"  Then I tell you no, we are just letting nature do its thing and you come back with well you aren't really TTC then.  Sorry that my way of choosing to have a child is not the same as yours but you aren't TTC more then me just because you are charting.  Same with someone who goes the IVF route. They aren't trying harder then someone who is going the charting method and even harder then someone who is just seeing what happens with regular sex.

My feeling is, if you are open to having a baby then go about it however you want, but don't lump someone in a different or lesser category then you because they aren't trying, in your mind, as hard.

And for crying out loud.  As another poster said, women have been getting pregnant for centuries without charting or temping.  Just because science has evolved to help women deem when the best time is to get pregnant does not mean that they are trying harder.  It just means that they decided to go a different direction.  Neither way is wrong, neither way is right.

ETA: As for birth control not being 100% effective and a pregnancy could result.  Well I am hoping that for people having sex they would have considered all of their options PRIOR to having sex and pick the option that works best for them at that time if for some reason they do become pregnant while on BC.

mikenberger

The pull out method! Man, don't threaten me with a good time!

I am SO intrigued how this works (I mean, I know how it works but more of a methodology standpoint). Where does the semen go? Do you keep a towel on the ready? A sock? A cup? Do you get all fancy with it and splatter paint on your belly? Whatever strikes the mood? Do you let him pick or do you get to decide? 

I just didn't realize that this was still an appropriate method after high school. But hey whatever works. Different strokes for different folks!

(heh. puns.)

ashley8918

lolo883 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

-----------------------------------
This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control.


Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

holyguacamole79

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see it that way.  Having unprotected sex means that you are open to having a baby.  If you are not open to having one then use birth control.  I don't see the need to label one person who is trying harder then another as TTC while the other is TTW.  Both are open to having a baby and splitting people up into groups can make others feel like what they are doing is wrong.  It is like the whole breast feeding, not breast feeding debate. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what works for that person.  Charting, temping and whatever else vs just letting nature run its course are both fine decisions to make and each person chooses their own path, but to say that because one person is letting nature run its course is not really TTC is just not okay.

But you can also have unprotected sex while successfully TTA with NFP.   You're not understanding that.   I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GET. PREGNANT.   I'll accept life if I do get pregnant but I intend to avoid fertile times.      Going from TTA to TTW and then to TTC can vary per person.   So putting an umbrella over it and saying, "Well you're just trying to have a baby," is a rather cold blanket statement to make.   It's based on the couple and what they want.

The issue that you keep making is the TTA = use birth control and not everyone believes that.   The other part that you don't address is that birth control isn't 100% effective.   So where do you find yourself then?   You don't need to answer me but my belief is that abortion = murder.   That's not a debate to me.   So IMO, if you can't handle a whoops of any kind the you shouldn't be having sex.   

I am understanding what you are saying.  I just don't agree with it all which is perfectly acceptable.

I just think grouping people into TTA, TTW, TTC or whatever other acronym you want to create is a good idea.

Just because I (general I) may not fit under your TTC category doesn't mean that I want a child any less then you.  It just means that I have decided to go a different route and that is okay.

Lumping people into different groups just makes for hard feelings down the road.  Like for instance if I say "oh we are trying for a baby." And then you say "oh are you temping and charting?"  Then I tell you no, we are just letting nature do its thing and you come back with well you aren't really TTC then.  Sorry that my way of choosing to have a child is not the same as yours but you aren't TTC more then me just because you are charting.  Same with someone who goes the IVF route. They aren't trying harder then someone who is going the charting method and even harder then someone who is just seeing what happens with regular sex.

My feeling is, if you are open to having a baby then go about it however you want, but don't lump someone in a different or lesser category then you because they aren't trying, in your mind, as hard.

And for crying out loud.  As another poster said, women have been getting pregnant for centuries without charting or temping.  Just because science has evolved to help women deem when the best time is to get pregnant does not mean that they are trying harder.  It just means that they decided to go a different direction.  Neither way is wrong, neither way is right.

ETA: As for birth control not being 100% effective and a pregnancy could result.  Well I am hoping that for people having sex they would have considered all of their options PRIOR to having sex and pick the option that works best for them at that time if for some reason they do become pregnant while on BC.

The thing is, nobody is putting someone else in a group.  It's not like I listen to what banana is doing and think "mmmhmm, she's TTA."  And it's not like doing one thing or another puts someone in that "group".  TTA, TTC, TTW denotes the mentality of a couple - it's how they self-identify so to speak.  In NFP groups, people will often ask for advice depending on their circumstance.  I'll often see questions such as "we are TTA and I just saw my temp jump up 2 degrees - is it safe to have sex tonight?"  Or "We are TTC and H is out of town.  I had good CM yesterday - can we still try tomorrow?"  

banana468

OK, my point is that when women ARE charting and they KNOW what is happening with their bodies then they CAN be TTC or TTA or TTW.     And people who resort to using fertility treatments don't have them covered until they go for months of TTC with no results.   You can't just go to a reproductive endocrinologist and expect the treatments to be paid for by your insurance.   BUT, they ARE covered on major plans once you show proof that you were trying for a period of time (I believe it's 1 yr if you're under 35 and for 6 mo if you're over).    In fact, when I was diagnosed with a fertility issue it was before we were TTC and my RE wanted DH to supply a sample.   We found out later that because we weren't TTC yet it was going to have to be out of pocket and his response was, "For $300, they should collect it themselves."

So yeah, people have unprotected sex all the time and eventually get pregnant.   But people also do it for a LONG time and start to wonder why the eff they aren't.

And I'm not going to touch the callousness of @ashley8918.   I'm going to hope to God that it's sarcasm but if it's not, the idea that an abortion can be some kind of joke makes me weep inside.   Seriously.   

Maggie0829

holyguacamole79 said:

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

Maggie0829 said:

banana468 said:

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way but not all unprotected sex = TTC.   BUT, all unprotected sex = open to life.   There's a big difference. 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see it that way.  Having unprotected sex means that you are open to having a baby.  If you are not open to having one then use birth control.  I don't see the need to label one person who is trying harder then another as TTC while the other is TTW.  Both are open to having a baby and splitting people up into groups can make others feel like what they are doing is wrong.  It is like the whole breast feeding, not breast feeding debate. Neither is right or wrong, it is just what works for that person.  Charting, temping and whatever else vs just letting nature run its course are both fine decisions to make and each person chooses their own path, but to say that because one person is letting nature run its course is not really TTC is just not okay.

But you can also have unprotected sex while successfully TTA with NFP.   You're not understanding that.   I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GET. PREGNANT.   I'll accept life if I do get pregnant but I intend to avoid fertile times.      Going from TTA to TTW and then to TTC can vary per person.   So putting an umbrella over it and saying, "Well you're just trying to have a baby," is a rather cold blanket statement to make.   It's based on the couple and what they want.

The issue that you keep making is the TTA = use birth control and not everyone believes that.   The other part that you don't address is that birth control isn't 100% effective.   So where do you find yourself then?   You don't need to answer me but my belief is that abortion = murder.   That's not a debate to me.   So IMO, if you can't handle a whoops of any kind the you shouldn't be having sex.   

I am understanding what you are saying.  I just don't agree with it all which is perfectly acceptable.

I just think grouping people into TTA, TTW, TTC or whatever other acronym you want to create is a good idea.

Just because I (general I) may not fit under your TTC category doesn't mean that I want a child any less then you.  It just means that I have decided to go a different route and that is okay.

Lumping people into different groups just makes for hard feelings down the road.  Like for instance if I say "oh we are trying for a baby." And then you say "oh are you temping and charting?"  Then I tell you no, we are just letting nature do its thing and you come back with well you aren't really TTC then.  Sorry that my way of choosing to have a child is not the same as yours but you aren't TTC more then me just because you are charting.  Same with someone who goes the IVF route. They aren't trying harder then someone who is going the charting method and even harder then someone who is just seeing what happens with regular sex.

My feeling is, if you are open to having a baby then go about it however you want, but don't lump someone in a different or lesser category then you because they aren't trying, in your mind, as hard.

And for crying out loud.  As another poster said, women have been getting pregnant for centuries without charting or temping.  Just because science has evolved to help women deem when the best time is to get pregnant does not mean that they are trying harder.  It just means that they decided to go a different direction.  Neither way is wrong, neither way is right.

ETA: As for birth control not being 100% effective and a pregnancy could result.  Well I am hoping that for people having sex they would have considered all of their options PRIOR to having sex and pick the option that works best for them at that time if for some reason they do become pregnant while on BC.

The thing is, nobody is putting someone else in a group.  It's not like I listen to what banana is doing and think "mmmhmm, she's TTA."  And it's not like doing one thing or another puts someone in that "group".  TTA, TTC, TTW denotes the mentality of a couple - it's how they self-identify so to speak.  In NFP groups, people will often ask for advice depending on their circumstance.  I'll often see questions such as "we are TTA and I just saw my temp jump up 2 degrees - is it safe to have sex tonight?"  Or "We are TTC and H is out of town.  I had good CM yesterday - can we still try tomorrow?"  

But those groups came from somewhere didn't they?

banana468

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

You're ending a life.   Sorry but that is what it is.   If you don't want to be called a murderer then don't participate in a murder.   It's just that simple. 

ashley8918

banana468 said:

OK, my point is that when women ARE charting and they KNOW what is happening with their bodies then they CAN be TTC or TTA or TTW.     And people who resort to using fertility treatments don't have them covered until they go for months of TTC with no results.   You can't just go to a reproductive endocrinologist and expect the treatments to be paid for by your insurance.   BUT, they ARE covered on major plans once you show proof that you were trying for a period of time (I believe it's 1 yr if you're under 35 and for 6 mo if you're over).    In fact, when I was diagnosed with a fertility issue it was before we were TTC and my RE wanted DH to supply a sample.   We found out later that because we weren't TTC yet it was going to have to be out of pocket and his response was, "For $300, they should collect it themselves."

So yeah, people have unprotected sex all the time and eventually get pregnant.   But people also do it for a LONG time and start to wonder why the eff they aren't.

And I'm not going to touch the callousness of @ashley8918.   I'm going to hope to God that it's sarcasm but if it's not, the idea that an abortion can be some kind of joke makes me weep inside.   Seriously.   

------------------------------------


I don't know what gave you the impression that I was joking. You're going to have to accept that many people don't subscribe to your beleif system.

Maggie0829

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

Yeah this.  I mean, maybe people see it as offensive because when people think BC they think pills or other medical ways to prevent pregnancy.  But if you are abstaining from sex then you are controlling whether or not you get pregnant, thus birth control.  And this form of BC is the only form that is 100% effective.

beethery

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

You're ending a life.   Sorry but that is what it is.   If you don't want to be called a murderer then don't participate in a murder.   It's just that simple. 

Then call the police.

Everyone is not required to subscribe to your beliefs, as much as you are not required to subscribe to Ashley's. What works for each of you is different, and that is all there is to it. You do not need to go there with this murder mention shit because it isn't fucking cool.

Go talk to God.

KatieinBkln

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

elleC14 for most of our marriage.  We've never used any form of BC, and have always been open to kids.  Up until my surgery last March, I had no signs that I was even ovulating, so if we did conceive at that point, we would have been shocked.

We are technically TTC, but we are not as hard-core as other couples.  I'm temping and using the Creighton method of NFP (under the guidance of my obgyn).  But we are not obsessing over it ... partly because we know that we have some fertility issues and I honestly don't want to go crazy taking stuff like Clomid.  We will probably look into adoption later this year.

Okay - So, you were trying (if only halfheartedly, I guess) to get pregnant. You weren't actively preventing. 

I have an IUD and a plan that does not end in me having a baby if I were to get miracle pregnant anyway. I am super actively preventing.

------------------- As someone who is currently trying to get pregnant, I can honestly tell you that we weren't truly trying before. We knew that it was a possibility, and we were open to it. I'm now taking my Temps every morning, being more diligent in my charting, and taking supplements. I follow up with my NFP instructor and my obgyn regularly. I have bloodwork done monthly to see if I ovulated. If I see signs of fertility, we have sex (even if I'm totally not up for it). I wasn't doing any of those things before. Also, too @banana468 's point .... as Catholics, my husband and I will never use any form of artificial birth control. If we find that we are not ready for a pregnancy, we will abstain from sex during my fertile times.

__________________________________ Meh. Call it what you want, but in my opinion if you are having totally unprotected sex, you are TTC. Just because you're not super gung ho about it, doesn't mean that you're not doing something that you KNOW is likely to result in pregnancy. I know you mentioned fertility issues, though, so I get that the likelihood might not have been so high in your case, but I'm speaking in general here. Also, I never said anything about "artificial" birth control. NFP is a method of BC, just not the one for me. If you are practicing NFP to avoid a pregnancy, you are practicing birth control and not TTC.

You're contradicting yourself.   NFP *is* totally unprotected sex.   There's no sprinkling of Catholic pixie dust on the sheets or some kind of prayer said over an erection to avoid.   The concept with NFP is that you avoid during fertile times when you don't want to conceive.   There are very conservative methods (like not having sex until after you ovulated) and others  that aren't as conservative (having sex before ovulation when you shouldn't be fertile).   Then there's TTC when you *KNOW* that you are in your fertile time and you DTD until you can't walk.   And then there's TTW - when you pay attention to your fertility but you aren't actively trying to do anything.   TTW is probably the most carefree time because you're not making a plan to have sex.   You're basically saying that if the mood is right you'll go for it but if it's not, you're also OK with staying up late to watch football.  

That's much different than being upset that you're going to be on a week long business trip when you know it's the week that you have the green light after ovulation and you will have to wait for up to another month to be intimate again.   It's also much different from being upset that your DH spent all evening talking to a window salesman so your energy for TTC is completely well....out the window.

You can have an opinion on what to call it but well, you know what opinions are like.   :-) 

------------------------------- Yeah, I'm well aware of how it works, but thanks for the condescension. By "totally unprotected", I mean not using ANY form of birt control (which I said). NFP is a form of birth control, albeit not the one I 100% believe in the effectiveness of, but that's my own deal. You're also welcome to have your opinion about what way of TTC is more valid. But Not charting and temping and whateverthefuck does not mean that someone is not trying and desperately wanting for a baby.

My point is that when you're really trying you should be paying attention.   Those that monitor their fertility are zeroing in on when the best times to have sex will be and you're having sex in those times.   Like it or not, there *is* science behind this.   If you're constantly having sex outside your fertile window because you didn't know that a fertile window existed and you're wondering why you're not pregnant then you should begin to pay attention.        

If you ate the same food over and over again and noticed that it made you have digestive issues, would you just keep eating or would you try to figure out why the digestive issues were there?   Similarly, if you were actively trying to have a baby, after months of wanting to be pregnant, are you honestly saying that at no time you would look into WHY you weren't with child??   

After months? No. I've read (and I apologize if I am being naive/uninformed here) that it can take up to a year for a healthy couple to conceive. Before then, you aren't considered a case for fertility doctors. 

Also, I guess I just don't understand the obsessive aspect of needing to know exactly when you're supposed to be ovulating. Obviously if you're doing NFP for avoidance, you're paying attention anyway and you're abstaining during certain times, but for the rest of us, aren't people having sex at almost all times during their cycle? I don't have PIV sex when I'm on my period, but I'm doing it, often, for the other 3 weeks. Semen stays alive in the body for upwards of 2 days, so even if I'm not doing it EVERY day, if I'm doing it at least a couple times a week for 3 weeks at a time, I don't see how figuring out my "fertile window" is helpful.

Obviously I have a different approach in general. But to me, all this hubbub about knowing your exact cycle (in order to conceive; I get that some people's religious beliefs mean they have to know so as not to make themselves a clown car) seems like it's making a science experiment out of something that's a hell of a lot more fun when it's spontaneous.

holyguacamole79

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

Look, I don't expect you to agree with it.  I don't expect you to get it.  For Catholics, using any form of artificial birth control is a grave sin.  When people call NFP "Catholic Birth Control", Catholics get frustrated because we are not doing anything to alter our bodies or to deliberately prevent pregnancy.  It is a very different mindset for us than using "regular" contraception.

Here's what our church explicitly teaches:  (Source:  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2370.htm)

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

For us morally, there is a huge difference between taking a pill every day or slipping on a condom before sex and practicing NFP. As I said, I realize that this is not a POV that many have. I'm just letting you know where we are coming from.

banana468

beethery said:

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

You're ending a life.   Sorry but that is what it is.   If you don't want to be called a murderer then don't participate in a murder.   It's just that simple. 

Then call the police.

Everyone is not required to subscribe to your beliefs, as much as you are not required to subscribe to Ashley's. What works for each of you is different, and that is all there is to it. You do not need to go there with this murder mention shit because it isn't fucking cool.

Go talk to God.

What's not cool is saying that because it's legal it's OK.    I get it.   You have a right to do it and that right is protected because the Supreme Court said so.

I have the right to call it murder.   That right is protected too.

beethery

banana468 said:

beethery said:

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

You're ending a life.   Sorry but that is what it is.   If you don't want to be called a murderer then don't participate in a murder.   It's just that simple. 

Then call the police.

Everyone is not required to subscribe to your beliefs, as much as you are not required to subscribe to Ashley's. What works for each of you is different, and that is all there is to it. You do not need to go there with this murder mention shit because it isn't fucking cool.

Go talk to God.

What's not cool is saying that because it's legal it's OK.    I get it.   You have a right to do it and that right is protected because the Supreme Court said so.

I have the right to call it murder.   That right is protected too.

And we have a right to detest you for that nasty bullshit. Congratulations.

Enjoy yourself up on that cross.

ashley8918

banana468 said:

beethery said:

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

lolo883 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

-----------------------------------
This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control.


Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

You're ending a life.   Sorry but that is what it is.   If you don't want to be called a murderer then don't participate in a murder.   It's just that simple. 

Then call the police.

Everyone is not required to subscribe to your beliefs, as much as you are not required to subscribe to Ashley's. What works for each of you is different, and that is all there is to it. You do not need to go there with this murder mention shit because it isn't fucking cool.

Go talk to God.

What's not cool is saying that because it's legal it's OK.    I get it.   You have a right to do it and that right is protected because the Supreme Court said so.

I have the right to call it murder.   That right is protected too.

---------------------------

You're right to say it doesn't make it not rude as fuck and absolutely abhorrent.