Not trying, but not being as careful...

holyguacamole79

But those groups came from somewhere didn't they?

I guess they did. I'm really not too savvy on the history of some of the NFP terminology. It's just terms that couples use to classify where they are in their desire (or lack thereof) to have a child at that moment.

ETF Boxes

climbingsingle

banana468 said:

beethery said:

banana468 said:

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

You're ending a life.   Sorry but that is what it is.   If you don't want to be called a murderer then don't participate in a murder.   It's just that simple. 

Then call the police.

Everyone is not required to subscribe to your beliefs, as much as you are not required to subscribe to Ashley's. What works for each of you is different, and that is all there is to it. You do not need to go there with this murder mention shit because it isn't fucking cool.

Go talk to God.

What's not cool is saying that because it's legal it's OK.    I get it.   You have a right to do it and that right is protected because the Supreme Court said so.

I have the right to call it murder.   That right is protected too.

And what's really not cool is calling someone a fucking murderer because you believe in some crazy book that was written thousands of years ago. But I guess you live by all of the Bible's teachings, right? 

lyndausvi

I guess we will have to disagree, because I'm telling you I'm not trying anything.  

On BC = trying to prevent.  There is an actual goal to try and not get pregnant.

Charting, temping, testing = trying to conceive or not to conceive.   These things can have a dual effects.  You can use it as a goal to try and get pregnant or you can use the information to try and not get pregnant.  In both cases, there is active trying going on to get to a goal.

I'm in neither category.  I'm not trying anything other than simply having sex.  That's it, that's all. No goals to try and attempt.  Just plain sex.

 

If I was really TTC after 6 years off the BC I would be asking questions, doing something to help get pregnant.  But I never have, simply because I just don't care why.  I'm just simply living my life not worrying about whether or not I'm going to be or not be pregnant this month.

IDK, maybe I just define trying differently than others.

 

banana468

I'm fucking done here. 

ashley8918

holyguacamole79 said:

ashley8918 said:

lolo883 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

-----------------------------------
This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control.


Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

Look, I don't expect you to agree with it.  I don't expect you to get it.  For Catholics, using any form of artificial birth control is a grave sin.  When people call NFP "Catholic Birth Control", Catholics get frustrated because we are not doing anything to alter our bodies or to deliberately prevent pregnancy.  It is a very different mindset for us than using "regular" contraception.

Here's what our church explicitly teaches:  (Source:  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2370.htm)

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

For us morally, there is a huge difference between taking a pill every day or slipping on a condom before sex and practicing NFP. As I said, I realize that this is not a POV that many have. I'm just letting you know where we are coming from.

-------------------

But it isn't about whether or not I agree with your views on artificial birth control. It's just totally non-sensical to be offended by calling NFP to avoid birt control.

Birth control is how one controls whether or not they are going to get pregnant (to the best of their ability). You do that with NFP. I do that with an "artificial" IUD. Both are birth control methods.

ashley8918

banana468 said:

I'm fucking done here. 

--------------------------

That is wise.

beethery

banana468 said:

I'm fucking done here. 

Get ahold of that Matthew 7:1, you need it.

holyguacamole79

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

Look, I don't expect you to agree with it.  I don't expect you to get it.  For Catholics, using any form of artificial birth control is a grave sin.  When people call NFP "Catholic Birth Control", Catholics get frustrated because we are not doing anything to alter our bodies or to deliberately prevent pregnancy.  It is a very different mindset for us than using "regular" contraception.

Here's what our church explicitly teaches:  (Source:  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2370.htm)

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

For us morally, there is a huge difference between taking a pill every day or slipping on a condom before sex and practicing NFP. As I said, I realize that this is not a POV that many have. I'm just letting you know where we are coming from.

------------------- But it isn't about whether or not I agree with your views on artificial birth control. It's just totally non-sensical to be offended by calling NFP to avoid birt control. Birth control is how one controls whether or not they are going to get pregnant (to the best of their ability). You do that with NFP. I do that with an "artificial" IUD. Both are birth control methods.

Remember the discussion a few weeks ago about gender reveal parties and how people distinguish between gender & sex?  (http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/7529061#Comment_7529061).  I'm telling you that to a certain religious group, wording matters and it can offend.  How you choose to respond to that is a reflection of your character.

banana468

Who said I'm judging.   I'm saying abortion = murder and therefore if you engage in the act it is.

You seem to want to have the ability to do something without consequences.   The callousness stated, "Well if I get pregnant then I'm going to have an abortion," is absolutely offensive to me because it's life.

I'm not telling you to go rot in hell for it but I'm saying that at the very least, it shouldn't be discussed as flippantly as it was.   

beethery

holyguacamole79 said:

Remember the discussion a few weeks ago about gender reveal parties and how people distinguish between gender & sex?  (http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/7529061#Comment_7529061).  I'm telling you that to a certain religious group, wording matters and it can offend.  How you choose to respond to that is a reflection of your character.

Right, just like how calling someone a murderer would offend them. Not sure if you'd noticed the above exchange.

holyguacamole79

beethery said:

banana468 said:

I'm fucking done here. 

Get ahold of that Matthew 7:1, you need it.

Scroll down a bit more in Matthew 7; it's not all warm & fuzzies.

beethery

holyguacamole79 said:

beethery said:

banana468 said:

I'm fucking done here. 

Get ahold of that Matthew 7:1, you need it.

Scroll down a bit more in Matthew 7; it's not all warm & fuzzies.

We all know people like to take shit out of context from the bible, don't we? That bye gif applies to you as well.

ashley8918

holyguacamole79 said:

ashley8918 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

ashley8918 said:

lolo883 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

-----------------------------------
This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control.


Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

Look, I don't expect you to agree with it.  I don't expect you to get it.  For Catholics, using any form of artificial birth control is a grave sin.  When people call NFP "Catholic Birth Control", Catholics get frustrated because we are not doing anything to alter our bodies or to deliberately prevent pregnancy.  It is a very different mindset for us than using "regular" contraception.

Here's what our church explicitly teaches:  (Source:  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2370.htm)

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

For us morally, there is a huge difference between taking a pill every day or slipping on a condom before sex and practicing NFP. As I said, I realize that this is not a POV that many have. I'm just letting you know where we are coming from.

-------------------

But it isn't about whether or not I agree with your views on artificial birth control. It's just totally non-sensical to be offended by calling NFP to avoid birt control.

Birth control is how one controls whether or not they are going to get pregnant (to the best of their ability). You do that with NFP. I do that with an "artificial" IUD. Both are birth control methods.

Remember the discussion a few weeks ago about gender reveal parties and how people distinguish between gender & sex?  (http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/7529061#Comment_7529061).  I'm telling you that to a certain religious group, wording matters and it can offend.  How you choose to respond to that is a reflection of your character.

--------------------------------------


Except that that isn't the same at all. Gender and sex actually mean different things.

Birth control is a general term that encompasses many different methods of CONTROLLING BIRTH.

And don't you fucking dare attack my "character". You, of all people, have no room to go there.

holyguacamole79

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

Um, the abstaining portion of NFP is completely a form of birth control. You are controlling the possibility of a future birth by keeping your legs closed for business. That's as sure as it gets.

----------------------------------- This. Why would this be offensive? It 100% is birth control. Do you know what actually IS offensive? Calling me a murderer for making the right (and perfectly okay and legal) choice for myself by terminating a pregnancy.

Look, I don't expect you to agree with it.  I don't expect you to get it.  For Catholics, using any form of artificial birth control is a grave sin.  When people call NFP "Catholic Birth Control", Catholics get frustrated because we are not doing anything to alter our bodies or to deliberately prevent pregnancy.  It is a very different mindset for us than using "regular" contraception.

Here's what our church explicitly teaches:  (Source:  http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2370.htm)

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

For us morally, there is a huge difference between taking a pill every day or slipping on a condom before sex and practicing NFP. As I said, I realize that this is not a POV that many have. I'm just letting you know where we are coming from.

------------------- But it isn't about whether or not I agree with your views on artificial birth control. It's just totally non-sensical to be offended by calling NFP to avoid birt control. Birth control is how one controls whether or not they are going to get pregnant (to the best of their ability). You do that with NFP. I do that with an "artificial" IUD. Both are birth control methods.

Remember the discussion a few weeks ago about gender reveal parties and how people distinguish between gender & sex?  (http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/7529061#Comment_7529061).  I'm telling you that to a certain religious group, wording matters and it can offend.  How you choose to respond to that is a reflection of your character.

-------------------------------------- Except that that isn't the same at all. Gender and sex actually mean different things. Birth control is a general term that encompasses many different methods of CONTROLLING BIRTH. And don't you fucking dare attack my "character". You, of all people, have no room to go there.

And for us, Natural Family Planning and birth control are different things.  

KatieinBkln

banana468 said:

Who said I'm judging.   I'm saying abortion = murder and therefore if you engage in the act it is.

You seem to want to have the ability to do something without consequences.   The callousness stated, "Well if I get pregnant then I'm going to have an abortion," is absolutely offensive to me because it's life.

I'm not telling you to go rot in hell for it but I'm saying that at the very least, it shouldn't be discussed as flippantly as it was.   

If a person doesn't believe it's murder, then there's nothing to be flippant about. You have every right to cringe at Ashley's choices and phrasing, but you really have no cause to say what "should" or "shouldn't" be discussed and in what manner. The two sides here start with a totally different premise (and we all know that neither side is going to convince the other).

Besides, if we're going to get into how people should talk to each other, I'm pretty sure calling someone a murderer when there is VAST debate on whether that is true is a lot worse than being flip or callous.

Maggie0829

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

beethery

Maggie0829 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

Too late. Banana brought that shit out for no damn reason.

Ugh.

banana468

Maggie0829 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

Agreed.

climbingsingle

beethery said:

Maggie0829 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

Too late. Banana brought that shit out for no damn reason.

Ugh.

Exactly. There was no reason that abortion needed to be brought into this. Thanks Banana. 

emmaaa

  

Maggie0829 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

Seconded. People have very clear views on this and going back and forth and insulting the other will not change anything.

ashley8918

holyguacamole79 said:

ashley8918 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Maggie0829 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

-------------------------------

Too late. When it was brought up unnecessarily, that ship sailed.

And this isn't even about whether or not anyone believes abortion is wrong or a viable option. It's about not being an asshole about someone else believes differently.

climbingsingle

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

------------------------------- Too late. When it was brought up unnecessarily, that ship sailed. And this isn't even about whether or not anyone believes abortion is wrong or a viable option. It's about not being an asshole about someone else believes differently.

Exactly. If you want to be pro-life, that's cool. But don't call me a murderer and expect me to be all fucking sunshine and unicorns about it. 

banana468

Don't say you're going to have an abortion and expect me to be OK with it either.    

Respecting beliefs also means that statements like this shouldn't be said either:

My plan to not have another includes having an abortion straight away, if my IUD were to somehow catastrophically fail. 100% effective. 

And apparently I'm already a murderer. THROW MY ASS IN JAIL!

Maggie0829

climbingwife said:

ashley8918 said:

ashley8918 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

------------------------------- Too late. When it was brought up unnecessarily, that ship sailed. And this isn't even about whether or not anyone believes abortion is wrong or a viable option. It's about not being an asshole about someone else believes differently.

Exactly. If you want to be pro-life, that's cool. But don't call me a murderer and expect me to be all fucking sunshine and unicorns about it. 

Okay I am not taking sides here, but I will say that Catholics are taught that abortion is murder.  If you follow that faith and believe the teachings then she is just stating what she was taught and believes.

So to be surprised or offended that someone who doesn't believe in abortion thinks that those who do believe in abortion are murderers is kind of silly.  I mean, that is not a hidden belief pro-lifers have, is it?

lyndausvi

emmaaa said:

  

Maggie0829 said:

I vote for not having an anti vs pro abortion debate today

Seconded. People have very clear views on this and going back and forth and insulting the other will not change anything.

Exactly.  

We all know who is on what side of this debate and I think it's wise to not engaged in this topic.  I fear the result will come with consequences we all would not like to see.

I can't tell you what to post and yes threads have a way of going on tangents, but I would prefer we go back on topic here.     

I'm heading to lunch soon with my DH, I really am not in the mood to come back to a shit show. 

VulgarGirl

If I could just fuck my wife like bunnies and get her knocked up, I totally would. She'd still want to chart. She likes that shit, she's Type A, I'm type like Q or something.

And as for abortion:

climbingsingle

banana468 said:

Don't say you're going to have an abortion and expect me to be OK with it either.    

Respecting beliefs also means that statements like this shouldn't be said either:

My plan to not have another includes having an abortion straight away, if my IUD were to somehow catastrophically fail. 100% effective. 

And apparently I'm already a murderer. THROW MY ASS IN JAIL!

I don't remember anyone asking your opinion on abortion. 

And seriously? If I was respecting your beliefs, I'm still allowed to express my beliefs. And that means saying, "if I got pregnant, I'd have an abortion. And I'm OK with that."

VulgarGirl

banana468 said:

Don't say you're going to have an abortion and expect me to be OK with it either.    

Respecting beliefs also means that statements like this shouldn't be said either:

My plan to not have another includes having an abortion straight away, if my IUD were to somehow catastrophically fail. 100% effective. 

And apparently I'm already a murderer. THROW MY ASS IN JAIL!

So because Ashley's plan for a potential pregnancy (and IUDs are 99% effective, we're talking about a >1% chance) involve's something you don't agree with, she can't talk about it? 

holyguacamole79

MagicInk said:

If I could just fuck my wife like bunnies and get her knocked up, I totally would. She'd still want to chart. She likes that shit, she's Type A, I'm type like Q or something.

And as for abortion:

I'd be just as thrilled if a baby saved from abortion was gay or straight.  What matters is that the child lives.

And I am very open about the fact that if I met a woman considering an abortion, I would be willing to adopt that child.  

Maggie0829

climbingwife said:

banana468 said:

Don't say you're going to have an abortion and expect me to be OK with it either.    

Respecting beliefs also means that statements like this shouldn't be said either:

My plan to not have another includes having an abortion straight away, if my IUD were to somehow catastrophically fail. 100% effective. 

And apparently I'm already a murderer. THROW MY ASS IN JAIL!

I don't remember anyone asking your opinion on abortion. 

And seriously? If I was respecting your beliefs, I'm still allowed to express my beliefs. And that means saying, "if I got pregnant, I'd have an abortion. And I'm OK with that."

MagicInk said:

banana468 said:

Don't say you're going to have an abortion and expect me to be OK with it either.    

Respecting beliefs also means that statements like this shouldn't be said either:

My plan to not have another includes having an abortion straight away, if my IUD were to somehow catastrophically fail. 100% effective. 

And apparently I'm already a murderer. THROW MY ASS IN JAIL!

So because Ashley's plan for a potential pregnancy (and IUDs are 99% effective, we're talking about a >1% chance) involve's something you don't agree with, she can't talk about it? 

As with all threads on here, everyone is allowed to state their opinion on anything that is posted.

And anyone is allowed to post whatever they want as long as it does not violate the TOS.

So if someone does not agree with abortion they are allowed to state their beliefs.  Same goes for those who do believe in abortion.  To say that no one asked their opinion on the subject is like when a bridezilla says "I didn't ask you your opinion on whether I kick out my MOH."  But if you provide the information then it is up for grabs.

But as long as you (general you) are confident in your beliefs why would you let someone who has an opposing stance get under your skin.  The fact that a pro-lifer sees abortion as murder should not be shocking to anyone on.  So why get offended?